Top Ten BC Lions Good and Bad IMMEDIATE CHANGES

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Would BC have won the 2004 Grey Cup had Casey Printers replaced Dave Dickenson at halftime?

Yes
10
53%
No
9
47%
 
Total votes: 19
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Robbie
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I'm sure on YouTube you've seen Top 10 Mojo lists, and on this board we've created and discussed several threads about various lists comparing various aspects about the BC Lions and they are interesting. I've created several lists related to the best and possibly worst:

BC Lions Trades
BC Lions who RETURNED
Short Term BC Lions
Underrated BC Lions
BC Lions with a Single Memorable Moment

In addition to the various threads about the best BC Lions games, coaches, and players.

In light of the fact that someone mentioned in the NHL thread about how Eddie Lack should have replaced Ryan Miller after he allowed his third goal, this has got me thinking about the issue of immediate changes. I've noticed that overall, the issue of changes is always difficult even though most of the time the change leads to a better outcome. Think of a time when you were given an opportunity to make a change to your life - and you made the change. In retrospect and in hindsight, was it a good change in the end? For me personally, overall the change was a good move in the end and I've made some regrets in not making a change when the better outcome would have been to make the change. I think it's human nature to not want to make a change......for fear of uncertainty......consistent with Newton's Laws about how a stationary object will remain stationary unless a huge force is applied.

That said, I think it's time for another list on situations in which the Lions have made an immediate change. What I mean by immediate change is:

1. For on-field matters, a starting player being replaced with another player in the middle of a game.
2. For off-field matters, personnel changes that take place in the middle of a season.

Do not think about changes in the off-season such as player/staff trades, resignations, releases since that is more expected and the authority in charge had time to think about it. For immediate changes, it requires far less time to think or consider as to whether the change is good or not. I'll start off by listing 10 cases in which an immediate change turned out for the better, then create a list of 5 in which a change was not made and turned out to be the wrong move, and finally 5 examples in which the change didn't turn out to be a better outcome.

:cheer: :yahoo: Top Ten BC Lions Moments when an IMMEDIATE CHANGE was a GOOD One :rockin: :beer:

1. 1994 Grey Cup - Danny McManus replacing Kent Austin as QB
First and foremost, after Kent Austin threw three interceptions in the end of the second quarter and Baltimore jumped to a 14-3 lead, his minor injury was a blessing in disguise as he was clearly losing confidence. While Austin recovered enough to play in the second half, Ritchie made the right decision to keep him in the sidelines. While McManus was only 3-7 in passing, at least he didn't throw anymore interceptions for the team and his 3 passes were long ones, albeit one extremely controversial. For the two playoffs games in which Austin replacing McManus in the WDSF and McManus replacing Austin in the WDF, I wouldn't consider this an immediate change for the better because the staring QB's were not really struggling prior to their injuries.

2. Late 2010 - Travis Lulay replacing released Casey Printers as starting QB
The Lions gave Casey Printers a second chance and it was very emotional when he was released just before the 2010 season and made Travis Lulay as the starting QB. But no doubt it was the right decision as Lulay went on to become the 2011 MOP and Grey Cup MVP.

3. Early 1988 - Lui Passaglia Replacing 3 kickers
When the Lions had to release him at the start of the 1988 season because of financial constraints, the team went with Tony Martino, Roy Kurtz, and Bernie Ruoff for placekicking and all three were totally inneffective. Realizing how valuable Lui Passaglia was after all, Joe Galat was willing to sign him again after all.

4. Mid 2000 - Steve Buratto replacing Greg Mohns as Head Coach
While Greg Mohns was okay when he took over the team in mid-1998 and led them to six straight wins and a 13-5 1999 regular season, his attitude and personality was not the most compatible for the players and I'm sure most players felt a sense of relief when Mohns bolted for the XFL and Buratto became his replacement. Perhaps because they were so appreciative of him becoming head coach that players worked very hard and was rewarded with two good road playoff performances and capped it off with a Grey Cup.

5. Early 2006 - Joe Smith replacing Antonio Warren at RB
While Antonio Warren served well as a Lion, it was apparent that Joe Smith was better and served the Lions well in the remaining of the 2006 championshp season.

6. Mid 1994 - Mervyn Fernandez released for Defensive Rosters
While it's always sad to see fan favourites leave, the fact of the matter was that Fernandez was well past his prime and was not going to dethrone the starting wide receivers of Ray Alexander and Darren Flutie. His release allowed other players such as Barry Wilburn to take important defensive positions as the missing link to the team's championship season.

7. 2006 Grey Cup - Ian Smart as RB and Buck Pierce entering the game
While the Lions deserved the win as the defense did well by allowing the Montreal offence to only score 10 points and forced some turnovers, the special teams did well with McCallum going 6 fo 6 in FG with his MVC performance, and Dickenson won game MVP - the offence had a hard time entering the end zone. Putting kick returner Ian Smart in as RB and backup QB Buck Pierce into the game at a pivotal moment seemed to confuse the Montreal defence enough to allow the Lions the only TD of the game.

8. Mid 2011 - Obtaining Arland Bruce III
In need for a good receiver after the team started off 0-5 and 1-6, the Lions traded with Hamilton for a couple of draft picks for Arland Bruce III and that seemed to change the team around and was definitely a pivotal piece in the Grey Cup season.

9. Mid 1996 - Replacing Andre Ware with Damon Allen at QB
I should list this higher, but since Damon Allen is so unpopular. :sigh: Nevertheless it's hard to make a case against signing a QB who is a hall of famer who ends up at QB for seven years.

10. Late-1996 - David Braley buying the team over Nelson Skalbania
While it wasn't finalized until January 1997, Braley showed his intention to buy the team before the end of the 1996 season after Nelson Skalbania abandoned the team....and the rest is history.



I'm sure we've all made would haves, could haves, and should haves and that happens most often if a change may have been appropriate, but was not done and there were regrets. Here are five examples in Lions history.

:bang: :dizzy: Top Five BC Lions Moments when an IMMEDIATE CHANGE SHOULD HAVE been made but was not made :sigh: :puke:
1. 2004 Grey Cup - Printers not replacing Dickenson at QB
First and foremost as it's been debated to death.....the 2004 MOP did not enter the game. I suppose since Dickenson finished the 2004 WDF and started off strong with several completions for a quick 7-0 lead, Buono was unwilling to make changes. But in the second half aside from just one good drive that resulted in him scoring a TD, he was notably angry and perhaps Printers would have been able to put more points. At halftime, it was 17-10 for the Argonauts. Do you think the Lions would have won the game had Casey Printers replaced Dave Dickenson at halftime? Adding a poll to this.

2. 2008 WDF - Jarious Jackson not replacing Buck Pierce at QB
One of the most frustrating games to watch...the Lions dominated the first half but Pierce just couldn't enter the end zone after several attempts. That must have made him mad in the second half and threw a costly interception. Jackson might have performed with a calmer mind.

3. 1988 Grey Cup - Larry Crawford not replacing Anthony Drawhorn as kick returner
While the Duck may have been aging, he was no incapable returning kicks like he did several times in 1987. He probably wouldn't have fumbled a crucial play in the 3rd quarter like what Anthony Drawhorn did. On a similar note, Matt Dunigan not choosing David Williams over Jan Carinci in the crucial play late in the game.

4. 1983 Grey Cup - Any other receiver other than Jacques Chapdelaine
The Lions still had a chance to move the ball into field goal range after the Argonauts took an 18-17 lead, but Dewalt elected a rookie receiver in a crucial 2 and 20 play.

5. Early 1990 season - Joe Paopao over Doug Flutie as starting QB
With four QB's competing for the starting job, Kuharich elected aging Joe Paopao to start several games before Doug Flutie took over. True, Flutie was not experienced at the time but I'd choose him over an aging Paopao.



While most cases a change proved a good outcome, there are always exceptions left and right and I suppose that's the main reason why it's human nature not to want to change and here are five examples in which the change didn't turn out for the good. But even though it didn't turn out for the better, it didn't necessarily turn out for the worse either especially if you look at it in a binary, black and white perspective - i.e. 1) Change for the better = won the game, 2) Didn't turn out for the better = did not win the game.

:juggle: :violin: Top Five BC Lions Moments when an IMMEDIATE CHANGE did not change the outcome :hmm: :surrender:
1. Late 1987 - Don Matthews fired for Larry Donovan
The effects did not become apparent at first since the team went 4-0 to close the 1987 season along with a 1988 Grey Cup appearance. But the fact of the matter is, Don Matthews went on to become a legend and hall of famer with several more Grey Cups and Coach of the Year awards. While Donovan disappeared from the CFL scene after being fired four games into the 1989 season.

2. 1987 WDF - Holloway replacing Dewalt at halftime
The Lions trailed 21-7 at the half and Donovan put Holloway in the second half but the Lions failed to produce any points in the 31-7 loss.

3. Late 2005 WDF - Printers replacing Dickenson at QB
Perhaps Buono finally heard the rage from the fans from the 2004 GC. But this time Printers didn't change the outcome as when the Lions was threatening to tie the game, Printers threw an interception to Keyou Craver at the goal line.

4. 2007 WDF - Dickenson replacing Jackson at QB
Starting QB Jackson struggled going 3-12 with 2 interceptions. Dickenson was slightly better at 14-19 and a touchdown when he took over at the second half but wasn't superb and couldn't defend their GC.

5. 2009 EDF - Lulay replacing Printers at QB
Neither Lions QB could match the 56 points put on by the Alouettes.
Last edited by Robbie on Mon May 04, 2015 8:59 am, edited 7 times in total.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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The_Pauser
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Nice write-up. Brought back some good memories, and also brought back some memories that I thought I had completely repressed......;)

One question though: how can you call 14/19 1TD only a slight improvement over 3/12 2INT? To me that's a massive improvement, though as you correctly state it really didn't do much to change the outcome of the game.
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Robbie
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The_Pauser wrote:One question though: how can you call 14/19 1TD only a slight improvement over 3/12 2INT? To me that's a massive improvement, though as you correctly state it really didn't do much to change the outcome of the game.
Yes, I'm only talking about the eventual outcome. Heading into the fourth quarter of the 2007 WDF, the Lions trailed by nine points at 26-17. The Lions defence finally did their job by not allowing the Roughriders to score any more points. Unfortunately Dickenson and the Lions offence were unable to score any more points either and that's how the game ended.

----------

I know of at least two BC Lions losses that were definitely as a result of the opponent making an immediate change:

1983 Grey Cup - Joe Barnes replacing Condredge Holloway at halftime
Despite throwing one TD, Holloway was clearly struggling and his Argonauts trailed 17-7. Putting Joe Barnes at QB seemed to inspire the Argonauts in that his defence prevented the Lions from scoring any more points while his offence slowly climbed back into the game and eventually taking the lead with 2:44 remaining.

Late 1988 Winnipeg Blue Bombers - Sean Salisbury replacing Tom Muecke and Roy Dewalt at QB
Picked up as a free agent after the Lions dropped him, Roy Dewalt signed with the Blue Bombers and was designated as the starting quarterback but struggled big time. Tom Muecke eventually took the starting position from Dewalt, who was released. When Muecke got injured, Sean Salisbury joined the team and became the starting QB, and there's no way the Blue Bombers would have won the 1988 Grey Cup with Dewalt or Muecke at QB. True, in the second half it was mostly the Blue Bombers defence that performed better, but in the first half Salisbury passed for more yardage than Dunigan, led by his 5 passes for 165 yards to James Murphy and more importantly, no interceptions unlike Dunigan's two costly interceptions in addition to their four other turnovers.

Adding a poll on the one of the biggest decision debates in Lions history.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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cromartie
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1. 2004 Grey Cup - Printers not replacing Dickenson at QB
Not only should this not be #1, this shouldn't be on here at all.

Dave Dickenson was not the reason we lost this Grey Cup, and I have no idea why this perception persists among Lions fans.

1) Poor Special Teams. Wally coached in fear of Bashir Levingston and it resulted in both a distinct field position disadvantage and a poor performance by Duncan O'Mahony.

2) Poor Offensive Game Planning/Coaching. This is your biggest culprit. The Argonauts base defense was essentially a 4 man rush with 8 dropping back. It was the easiest defense in the league to game plan against. They begged you to run. And run. And then run some more. It was the least aggressive run defense in the league and Antonio Warren proved it, rushing 18 times for 160 yards. Had the offensive brain trust, which consisted of Chappie stabbing Steve Burratto in the back on a weekly basis, had just ran Warren like he was going out of style, the Lions could have easily won this game. They hated each other so much, in fact, that the team took two Time Count Violations arguing over what play to run on a two point conversion. And they needed to run because...

3) Poor Offensive Line Play. Freddie Moore was a freaking turnstile at Left Tackle all season and was horrible in this game. The decade long disinterest in competent offensive line play reached its nadir when he and a teammate got into a fight earlier in the week and they marched Moore out there anyway.

4) Bad blitzing. Jason Crumb was an ineffective blitzer from the safety position and spent that season proving it. Unfortunately, Paul Arslanian kept sending him anyway and his inability to get to the QB led directly to the game winning touchdown. He sent Crumb on a delayed Safety blitz four times, and it failed every single time.

As someone who watch both that Grey Cup, and the October 11th, 2004 game where Casey Printers threw four interceptions against the exact same Toronto Argonauts defense in Toronto, let me state this, clearly, once again Dave Dickenson was not the reason the Lions lost this Grey Cup, and replacing him with Casey Printers wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.

This loss was a failure of coaching in two areas: cowardice on Special Teams, which was Wally's call and an epic failure in coaching execution on offense. No quarterback was going to fix that.
Last edited by cromartie on Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Toppy Vann
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It's a fool's game to try and guess what a change would produce if anything - but that doesn't negate trying something to just change the momentum and flow and give your team a chance to win.

Changing your QB can give them a new look and all of a sudden your team builds momentum and away you go to a win. That is about the only reason to take out your QB when he isn't really the problem on the say.

The other highly compelling reason in the Printers case was that he was in Ottawa and just crowned the CFL MOP!!! That alone suggests he plays.

The Canucks HC is being questioned why he went to Miller knowing he was rusty and likely might struggle - he did - and leave his other guy who helped get them to the playoffs riding the pine. Others on that thread about the Canucks note that he likely cost his team a gold medal in world juniors by not changing a goalee.

Personal story:
I recall being an assistant to Jim Easton former pro player and coach who when we were getting hammered and down 2 to 0 in a cup game with no life so he told me to take out two players. My response was: "They're our two best players on the day!" He said - 'We have to do something" so I did what I was told. I was told to let them know it wasn't about them - we knew they were the two top ones there. These two were angry and started to walk to the changing room when we scored our first goal. They hesitated and looked back and started to walk away again when 30 seconds later we scored again and were all over them. Game went immediately to OT where we potted two more goals and the other team were frustrated and out of subs as they emptied their bench pre-OT when it was clear we sucked!
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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cromartie
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Toppy Vann wrote: The other highly compelling reason in the Printers case was that he was in Ottawa and just crowned the CFL MOP!!! That alone suggests he plays.
His regular season performance against Toronto and his health dictated that he sat. The game plan against Toronto that October, and his utter inability to execute it (or more appropriately, audible out of it, because it was awful) was a total failure and indicative of what that Grey Cup would have been.

This is an incredibly dumb debate. Dickenson had a fine game despite a coaching staff that was chronically ill prepared for what should have been a very easy win over a not particularly good Toronto team. You run, then you run again, then you run some more. Especially with a bad pass blocking offensive line and a solid RB. The Chap/Burratto conflict was even worse when Printers was in there than it was with Dickenson, because Printers played into the worst tendencies of the two, which was to chuck the ball downfield into a defense playing three deep. Dickenson at least had enough experience to audible out of the stupid stuff.

I can't believe you revisions history people still won't give up on the legend of Casey Printers. *smh*
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Robbie
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While Dickenson was not entirely blamed for the 2004 Grey Cup loss as others were at fault as well, I'd say it's also human nature to hold a good quarterback to a very high standard and one high standard is for the team that's trailing to fight back with some quick scores to take the lead - that's what happens sometimes with great quarterbacks - mostly notably Tom Brady in Super Bowl XLIX after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter, he led his Patriots for two quick touchdowns to take the lead and win the game. Unfortunately Dickenson couldn't do the same kind of comeback trailing 9 points in the fourth quarter of the 2007 WDF as he was kept scoreless.

In the middle of the fourth quarter after Dickenson did manage to engineer a TD drive with a failed conversion to trail at 24-19. BC got the ball back after the defence stopped the Argonauts drive and the Lions had a chance to take the lead with another TD drive, but unfortunately Dickenson threw an incomplete pass on 2nd down and was forced to punt. This time Toronto got a FG to make it a 27-19 and the Lions had one more chance to at tie the game with a converted touchdown, but again Dickenson threw incomplete and was forced to punt and Toronto managed to run off the clock. I remember very well that after one of the two failed drives, the camera was pointed directly to Dickenson's face and he cursed loudly for the audience to see. It looks like after the failed conversion Dickenson was steamed after that and nobody can play well when outraged. Perhaps with a sane and calmer mind, Printers could have driven the Lions down field for a necessary touchdown.

--------

Speaking of immediate changes by the opponent against the Lions, I also remember the 1999 WDF when Dickenson started the game and led the Calgary to a 16-7 lead late in the second quarter but became injured for a while and backup and usually third-string QB Mike McCoy came into the game. With the QB change by Calgary, it looked like the Lions defence expected the Stampeders to run more conservative plays with the lead and with their third-string QB. But the Lions defence was completely shocked when McCoy immediate threw a long 53-yard TD bomb to Allen Pitts to make the score 23-7 forcing the Lions to make a huge comeback attempt in the second half.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Toppy Vann
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By the way, I don't see this issue as a Top 10 ever issue.

My reasons for giving Printers some time in the game were simple:

1. A move like that might spark the team and turn momentum. Casey could make exciting plays then.
(It could fail but changes in all sports can work miracles when changes are made).

2. He is your league MOP and deserves to play. He contributed to the season that led to the team in that game as well.

The issue I don't know is how bad was the shoulder injury. I think the next season he had foot injuries and the shoulder was never on par with a Lulay injury.

I also just thought of this too. If a player knows an injury and coming out of a game means he loses his job next week he might just soldier on and not say anything. That is never a good thing.

This story on his rise and fall is a refresher on how he fell from MOP to bust in the NFL - then Hamilton and his silly decision to try to enter their dressing room and go down on the sidelines. NO coach pre a big game wants any sideline distractions and old home week can wait.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1355 ... y-printers
During the 2004 season, Printers passed for over 5,000 yards, adding nearly 500 rushing yards and accounting for 44 touchdowns.

The end result was the CFL Most Outstanding Player of the year award.

Entering the playoffs, Printers was confident of capping an impressive season by winning the Grey Cup. Fate had other ideas. He sustained a shoulder injury in the fourth quarter of the West Division final and Dickenson came into the game to lead the Lions to an overtime victory.

Entering the Grey Cup, Lions head coach Wally Buono made the controversial decision to start Dickenson. On the biggest stage in Printers career so far, he didn’t even get onto the field as the Lions lost 27-19 to the Toronto Argonauts.
If Wally were thinking longer term with this player and his personality type (not all players who are great are easy to work with and managing personalities is what ALL the great coaches have to do. WB knows this and he's done his fair share of handing egos successfully to become nearly unbeatable in the number of wins but even he admits he is not infallible. Like admitting how close he was to cutting Jeff Garcia.
The quarterback believed that B.C. would have won the game if he’d started. A lot of people saw this as further evidence of his ‘me-first’ attitude. However, you could argue that he had a valid point given his production during the season.

Buono and a lot of Printer’s Team Mates did not see it like this, viewing his reaction to not starting in the Grey Cup as proof that he was bad for team chemistry.

However, the Lions were still prepared to offer a three-year $1 million contract extension prior to the 2005 season, which Printers declined. This proved to be a pre-cursor for his season, becoming embroiled in a quarterback controversy with Dickenson and hindered by ongoing injury problems.

In 2006, the Lions made another three-year contract extension offer, this time for $1.2 million, which was also turned down due to interest from the Kansas City Chiefs. Unfairly a lot of people viewed this as looking out for number one.

The injury problems IIRC were foot not shoulder but not sure...lol...


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1355 ... y-printers
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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Robbie
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Toppy Vann wrote:My reasons for giving Printers some time in the game were simple:

1. A move like that might spark the team and turn momentum. Casey could make exciting plays then.
(It could fail but changes in all sports can work miracles when changes are made).

2. He is your league MOP and deserves to play. He contributed to the season that led to the team in that game as well.
:whs:
This is extremely cruel thing to say and think, but given how injury-prone Dickenson was during his time with the Lions I wonder if Lions fans were hoping that he'd get injured again so that Printers can come in and lead the Lions to a come-from-behind GC win the same way it happened in the Grey Cups of 1983, 1987, and 1994.
The issue I don't know is how bad was the shoulder injury.

For the benefit of the doubt, we don't know exactly how injured Printers was but I don't think he was all that injured. After all, Printers didn't have to be rushed to a hospital, didn't immediate have surgery, and was dressed for the Grey Cup game. And a determined QB can still play well with an injury with a good example being Matt Dunigan leading his Argonauts to victory in the 1991 Grey Cup despite having a broken collarbone.

---------------

Speaking of a MOP who didn't play and how an immediate change may have been a good one, we all remember that in late 1985 Mervyn Fernandez became the first Lions MOP but couldn't play in the Grey Cup because of a serious injury. Ned Armour took over his position and Hamilton's defence probably felt relieved decided not to double team Armour. As a result, Armour was one-on-one with Hamilton's defence and managed to real in two long touchdown catch, and a video shows one of his TD winning the battle over Less Browne.
[video][/video]
Even though Armour won the battle that day, no doubt Less Browne won the war as he went on to win three Grey Cups, became pro-footballs interception leader, and was inducted into the hall of fame while Ned Armour completely disappeared from the CFL after 1987.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Big Time
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cromartie wrote:
1. 2004 Grey Cup - Printers not replacing Dickenson at QB
Not only should this not be #1, this shouldn't be on here at all.

Dave Dickenson was not the reason we lost this Grey Cup, and I have no idea why this perception persists among Lions fans.

1) Poor Special Teams. Wally coached in fear of Bashir Levingston and it resulted in both a distinct field position disadvantage and a poor performance by Duncan O'Mahony.

2) Poor Offensive Game Planning/Coaching. This is your biggest culprit. The Argonauts base defense was essentially a 4 man rush with 8 dropping back. It was the easiest defense in the league to game plan against. They begged you to run. And run. And then run some more. It was the least aggressive run defense in the league and Antonio Warren proved it, rushing 18 times for 160 yards. Had the offensive brain trust, which consisted of Chappie stabbing Steve Burratto in the back on a weekly basis, had just ran Warren like he was going out of style, the Lions could have easily won this game. They hated each other so much, in fact, that the team took two Time Count Violations arguing over what play to run on a two point conversion. And they needed to run because...

3) Poor Offensive Line Play. Freddie Moore was a freaking turnstile at Left Tackle all season and was horrible in this game. The decade long disinterest in competent offensive line play reached its nadir when he and a teammate got into a fight earlier in the week and they marched Moore out there anyway.

4) Bad blitzing. Jason Crumb was an ineffective blitzer from the safety position and spent that season proving it. Unfortunately, Paul Arslanian kept sending him anyway and his inability to get to the QB led directly to the game winning touchdown. He sent Crumb on a delayed Safety blitz four times, and it failed every single time.

As someone who watch both that Grey Cup, and the October 11th, 2004 game where Casey Printers threw four interceptions against the exact same Toronto Argonauts defense in Toronto, let me state this, clearly, once again Dave Dickenson was not the reason the Lions lost this Grey Cup, and replacing him with Casey Printers wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.

This loss was a failure of coaching in two areas: cowardice on Special Teams, which was Wally's call and an epic failure in coaching execution on offense. No quarterback was going to fix that.
I agree with much of this post. The 2004 game was the worst coached game in Lions history, and the poor coaching decisions were 100% to blame for this championship loss. However it doesn't make sense to say that coaching cost them this game and then say that not putting Printers in wasn't a factor. Not putting Printers in was probably the biggest coaching blunder of the many, many coaching blunders committed on this day. Despite the ridiculous strategy on special teams, despite the indefensible no pressure scheme on defense, despite the absolutely horrible game plan, the Lions STILL had a chance to win this game if they could have gotten anything done on offense in the second half. With momentum starting to shift to Toronto, I will go to my grave believing that had they put Casey Printers in during the third quarter, the Lions would have squeaked out a victory. The Lions lost to an exceptionally mediocre Argos team, one that IMO goes down as one of the worst Grey Cup champions in the last twenty years. The Lions did not get beat by the Argos on that day. The Lions beat themselves.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs a bit here because your premise is that Dave Dickenson did not cost the Lions the game. I agree with this statement in that DD did what he could. However I don't think the argument about what Dave Dickenson did in this game is the point. The point is about what Casey Printers was not given the chance to do in this game. That was one of the most baffling coaching blunders in the history of the Grey Cup and, coupled with the other momentously stupid decisions made by the coaching staff that day, ultimately cost the Lions the 2004 championship.
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Toppy Vann
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BigTime... I'm with you. What kind of a coach wouldn't give the CFL's MOP a few series at least.

Something that might change momentum in the game. The Lions only racked up 19 points on offense.

Game changing situations can happen when a sub comes into a game and all of a sudden the other team is on the ropes.

In any professional sport or game there will be a time in the game when the team you're completely dominating will get 5 to 10 minutes of the upper hand. Good coaches don't preach to the team - not to let that happen as it will - but teach and preach how to deal with it so it doesn't become a game changer.

Not playing Printers was an insult to the CFL selectors who chose him as MOP. At the end of the day without fans, there is no team, no sponsors, etc.
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sj-roc
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cromartie wrote:
1. 2004 Grey Cup - Printers not replacing Dickenson at QB
Not only should this not be #1, this shouldn't be on here at all.

Dave Dickenson was not the reason we lost this Grey Cup, and I have no idea why this perception persists among Lions fans.

1) Poor Special Teams. Wally coached in fear of Bashir Levingston and it resulted in both a distinct field position disadvantage and a poor performance by Duncan O'Mahony.

2) Poor Offensive Game Planning/Coaching. This is your biggest culprit. The Argonauts base defense was essentially a 4 man rush with 8 dropping back. It was the easiest defense in the league to game plan against. They begged you to run. And run. And then run some more. It was the least aggressive run defense in the league and Antonio Warren proved it, rushing 18 times for 160 yards. Had the offensive brain trust, which consisted of Chappie stabbing Steve Burratto in the back on a weekly basis, had just ran Warren like he was going out of style, the Lions could have easily won this game. They hated each other so much, in fact, that the team took two Time Count Violations arguing over what play to run on a two point conversion. And they needed to run because...

3) Poor Offensive Line Play. Freddie Moore was a freaking turnstile at Left Tackle all season and was horrible in this game. The decade long disinterest in competent offensive line play reached its nadir when he and a teammate got into a fight earlier in the week and they marched Moore out there anyway.

4) Bad blitzing. Jason Crumb was an ineffective blitzer from the safety position and spent that season proving it. Unfortunately, Paul Arslanian kept sending him anyway and his inability to get to the QB led directly to the game winning touchdown. He sent Crumb on a delayed Safety blitz four times, and it failed every single time.

As someone who watch both that Grey Cup, and the October 11th, 2004 game where Casey Printers threw four interceptions against the exact same Toronto Argonauts defense in Toronto, let me state this, clearly, once again Dave Dickenson was not the reason the Lions lost this Grey Cup, and replacing him with Casey Printers wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.

This loss was a failure of coaching in two areas: cowardice on Special Teams, which was Wally's call and an epic failure in coaching execution on offense. No quarterback was going to fix that.
Kind of ironic he also notes Printers replacing DD in the following year's WF as among the worst instances in franchise history of an ineffective change. Would CP have brought anything in a higher stakes game in 2004 that he couldn't a year later?

Did Printers deserve to play in the 2004 GC? Maybe. Did DD deserve the hook on (lack of) merit in the same game? I don't think so. They're different questions.

Our ST were a joke in that game. Taking two consecutive TCV's on the same 2PC attempt, backing us up far enough that we could no longer risk coming away with nothing and did so anyway on the failed kick, is exhibit A.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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My blame on the 2004 GC loss went to the defence with honourable mention to the decision to play in fear of the Argo return game which ultimately shortened the field for just about every Argo possession. The defence turned swiss cheese in the middle of the game. From the halfway point of the 2nd quarter until the 4:45 mark of the 3rd quarter, a period of approximately 12 minutes, the Argos scored 24 of their game total 27 points. If I recall the Argos put points up on either 4 straight possessions or 4 possessions out of 5.
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B.C.FAN
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Hambone wrote:My blame on the 2004 GC loss went to the defence with honourable mention to the decision to play in fear of the Argo return game which ultimately shortened the field for just about every Argo possession. The defence turned swiss cheese in the middle of the game. From the halfway point of the 2nd quarter until the 4:45 mark of the 3rd quarter, a period of approximately 12 minutes, the Argos scored 24 of their game total 27 points. If I recall the Argos put points up on either 4 straight possessions or 4 possessions out of 5.
Yes. More specifically about the defence, it was Damon Allen isolating Carl Kidd in man coverage and exploiting him whenever the Argos needed a big play.
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David
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I was at that Grey Cup game (with Bosco). It would be foolish to pin any blame on starting Dickenson (we scored on our opening drive). Two things stood out at me sitting in the stands 1) special teams sucked. We spent the entire evening trying to kick away from Bashir Levingston, that O'Mahoney had the yips. I recall one punt travelled 9 yards! And 2) Damon Allen was "on" his game. There was good Damon throughout his career and bad Damon. Unfortunately, he picked a hell of a day to be great Damon (undoubtedly motivated by being cut by Wally). He shredded our defense which I thought had come out unusually flat (the Argos scouted our D really well too, and created some mismatches).

All that being said, I recall a fairly long stretch in the 2nd half when we just weren't moving the football. It is my belief that the whole team could have used a "pick me up" by inserting the league MOP in Printers. Would we have won the game? Hard to say. But I am quite certain the change of pace of putting the young gunslinger into the game would have benefitted the team on both sides of the ball.


DH :cool:
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