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Toppy Vann
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Like BC Fan I used to sit in the end zone- second row and to the corners as it is not great when you are looking at a goal line stance from your team at the far end but it is fine when they are scoring or defending in front of you.

When BCP opened my season tckts were lower upper deck and from there it is a good vantage view.

But when I read over the comments it shows how this failure to market this team this year is leading to a negative narrative or -at best - one based on this wishful thinking that the atmosphere is better with just the lower bowl fill.

If the product is winning and is exciting to watch no one freaking cares about the partial full upper deck as they are there for the game.

Skulsky would be foolish to do the Whitecaps thing and say never opening the upper deck unless the fans buy seasons and they're full below but if the team sputters he can keep just the lower deck filled and he can probably drape off the upper deck.
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Sir Purrcival
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Happened to run into a STH last night whose tix were, you guessed it, in the upper deck. The tix they offered in the lower bowl weren't horrible but he said they are definitely not as good as what he had in the UD. He didn't seem really upset about it but definitely feels he is going to something lesser than what he had.
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David
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Toppy Vann wrote:Skulsky would be foolish to do the Whitecaps thing and say never opening the upper deck unless the fans buy seasons and they're full below but if the team sputters he can keep just the lower deck filled and he can probably drape off the upper deck.
As I reported earlier in the week, the Lions (via Twitter below) have no plans to use the Whitecaps' drapes when the Upper Bowl is not being used.
BC Lions Service wrote:No plans for that as of now. Some lighting and screen obstruction issues with seats in lowers. Screen is higher for football
If they were smart, they would invest in team branded tarps for the Upper Bowl (in team colours, featuring logos and retired players numbers etc). Or if money is the issue, just plain black will do. Heck, even though I personally don't like the idea, tarps could be used as revenue generators to sell advertising. Unfortunately, staring at 28,000 empty seats says to the consumer, "the market doesn't care about the team," rather than "the stadium is too big for the market." Tarps solve that problem.

They are not uncommon in pro and college sports either. The Oakland Raiders and Oakland Athletics use tarps at the Oakland Coliseum, Miami Hurricanes use tarps at Sun Life Stadium, the Jaguars have them in place in Jacksonville, and the Seattle Sounders - the model MLS franchise - even use them at Century Link (see below).

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DH :cool:
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TheLionKing
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Please no more advertising. :cr:
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Hambone
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Sir Purrcival wrote:Happened to run into a STH last night whose tix were, you guessed it, in the upper deck. The tix they offered in the lower bowl weren't horrible but he said they are definitely not as good as what he had in the UD. He didn't seem really upset about it but definitely feels he is going to something lesser than what he had.
I think that goes without saying. The 150 STs they had up there last were probably all in the first 3 or 4 rows. The people sitting up there for the most part firmly believe those are the best seats in the stadium thus are going to rate all lower bowl seats as lesser options.
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Spud387
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TheLionKing wrote:How are the Lions getting shafted ?
The radio deal won’t ensure Braley will likely be ensured of a profit
It means TSN1040 is paying the Lions pennies for the broadcast rights, knowing we have no other options.
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sj-roc
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David wrote:If they were smart, they would invest in team branded tarps for the Upper Bowl (in team colours, featuring logos and retired players numbers etc). Or if money is the issue, just plain black will do. Heck, even though I personally don't like the idea, tarps could be used as revenue generators to sell advertising. Unfortunately, staring at 28,000 empty seats says to the consumer, "the market doesn't care about the team," rather than "the stadium is too big for the market." Tarps solve that problem.[/url]


DH :cool:
Yeah I'd preferred that if the UD is to be tarped that it be done with team branding. I believe you've posted about this before, a picture from an Argos game where they had tarps on the 500 level bearing the images of popular past players. I would welcome the same in a lower bowl-only setting. In the Comrie era there was tarping of all end zone seating in both levels — while all sideline seating remained available — that reduced the capacity from about 59k to just over 40k, with the tarps bearing images of all of the league's team logos. In those days the Lions typically drew below (or above) 30k for eastern (or western) opponents, and usually delivered a win (or loss).

Come to think of it I'm almost kind of surprised Skulsky hasn't gone with this configuration, as the seats that would be available in this scheme would likely be higher revenue generators. And perhaps even a more attractive seat for casual fans who only want to come to one or two games per year but want a sideline seat, even if it costs a little more. I haven't looked at this in detail but across the league we probably have one of if not the largest share of available seating lying behind the goal lines. To be sure there are some fans who prefer endzone seating and we've already heard from a few of these but all else equal, most spectators would probably prefer a sideline seat.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Rammer
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Spud387 wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:How are the Lions getting shafted ?
The radio deal won’t ensure Braley will likely be ensured of a profit
It means TSN1040 is paying the Lions pennies for the broadcast rights, knowing we have no other options.
The radio right holders shouldn't be paying out that much, as anyone can view games on TSN HD. Given the choice to view or listen to the game, it isn't exactly a comparison even with Black and company offering their opinion on the game tape. Of course there are those who like the best of both worlds and view the TV, and listen to the radio broadcast. Plus you can PVR the games on TV, not so much on the radio, where pre and post game are the most likely areas to have listeners tuned to the radio, a broadcast that you don't have to have the rights to run.
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sj-roc
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Hambone wrote:
dupsdell1 wrote:Did you guys hear the talk yesterday morning on 1040 With the Moj about how this is a much bigger football town than soccer town with the lions tv ratings of course killing the whitecaps ratings and how if you take the southsiders out of the picture that the caps would only be getting around 14-15 k a game . ?

I agree with that to a certain point , but the lions have a lot of work to do with in house experience they have really dropped the ball since ackles died , Skulsky is too much of a fan and not a business man , I hate to say but until he leaves, steps down or gets some help this lions team is going to sink further and further down the radio in Vancouver and bc.
I heard Moj's exchange with Mayenecht and could see his point. The two sports seem so much different and the numbers show. Football probably more than any other sport seems to show very well in TV. Moj's main soap box stand was that while the Whitecap's continue to gather traction at the stadium the Lions' brand is running at a rate 6 times that of the Caps in the TV market. The challenge for the Lions is to figure out how to drag those people back to the stadium from the comfort of their living rooms with their 55" HDTVs. Using the numbers loosely for every person sitting in BCP for a Lions game there are roughly 25 watching the game on TV. For the Whitecaps the ratio is closer to 5 watching at home to every 1 at the stadium.

The Southsider influence is interesting. It seems like for a Whitecaps game it's them providing the game day experience as opposed to the game or the Whitecaps organization. That seems to be a phenomenon tied to the sport of soccer globally. Maybe it's little more than the fans doing something to entertain themselves while they wait for that rare scoring opportunity to pull them out of their seat.
Mayenknecht for whatever reason seems pretty keen on the Whitecaps as a growth industry sufficiently robust to soon overtake the Lions on the local sporting landscape. But the latest ratings, as Moj even pointed out that day, indicate the Caps don't really pose much of threat on that front, at least not in the short term.

It's true that the TFC-Caps Mar 7 season opener on TSN drew one of the MLS's all-time best ratings in Canada with an average viewership of 353k, although even this highwater mark falls far short of a typical Lions broadcast. But have a look at the numbers Chris Zelkovich is reporting for these teams' respective second regular season games.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/ ... 57891.html
The Great Canadian Ratings Report: MLS not scoring on television
Chris Zelkovich

It's the case of the missing viewers.

When Toronto FC and the Vancouver Whitecaps kicked off the 2015 MLS season last week, a record average audience of 353,000 viewers tuned in to watch. All told, 1.9 million Canadians watched at least some part of the game.

So when the teams headed into the second weekend, good ratings were sure to follow, right? Uh, well, not even close.

The Whitecaps game against Chicago on Saturday averaged a measly 96,000 viewers on TSN. But that was positively blockbuster stuff compared with what TFC drew for its clash with Columbus. An average of only 58,000 viewers tuned to TSN, making it one of the least-watched events on television last week.

We're talking infomercial territory here. Those games drew less than short-track speed skating, pre-dawn curling, the CIS men's basketball final and pretty much everything else. Had lawnmower racing been on, it might have outdrawn TFC.

If this were a one-off, it might not be noteworthy. For all kinds of reasons, viewers go missing after a big draw. But this is the second year in a row that the MLS has opened with a relative bang -- okay, not in the same league as hockey, football or baseball -- only to come crashing back to earth the next week.

It's not that the MLS doesn't have a devoted following in Canada. It's just that there aren't very many of them and success at the gate has not produced success on television. TFC, in particular, saw numbers drop off the map last season as their much-hyped overhaul turned to dust.

The sad thing is that those double-digit ratings aren't out of the ordinary for Canada's MLS teams. They're pretty much business as usual.

Obviously, there are plenty of soccer fans. Premier League games on the weekend drew three times the audience that TFC managed. But MLS fans are harder to find, apparently.

This doesn't mean the MLS is a failure in Canada. A championship contender can turn things around pretty quickly, like the Toronto Raptors' experience last spring. But based on what Canada's MLS teams have shown so far, that could be a long way off.

Considering the publicity the teams get -- front-page newspaper coverage and plenty of attention from columnists -- they should be doing a lot better than that.

So should the CIS, which didn't celebrate Sportsnet's university championship day in high style. The high-water mark came with the men's hockey final, which averaged 61,000 viewers -- better than Rogers Hometown Hockey pre-game show, anyway.

But the good sign was that this university blitz experiment did produce higher ratings for basketball and women's hockey. So there's some hope, though Sportsnet will have to start doing some regular-season games to build up interest.

On the other hand, the Toronto Blue Jays have to take heart from a spring-training game that drew an average of 322,000 viewers to Sportsnet on Saturday. Despite all the bad news coming out of Florida, the fans are obviously still engaged.

Here are the most-watched sports events from the following weekend, according to Numeris overnight ratings:

1. NHL, Leafs-Canucks/Habs-Isles/Jets-Lightning, Saturday, CBC-Rogers: 2,100,000

2. NHL, Flames-Avs/Preds-Kings, Saturday, CBC-Rogers: 753,000

3. Women's world curling, Canada vs. China, Sunday, TSN: 608,000

4. NHL, FLyers at Senators, Sunday, City: 521,000

5. NHL, Hockey Night In Canada pre-game, Saturday, CBC-Rogers: 460,000

6. Auto racing, NASCAR Camping World 500, Sunday, TSN: 390,000

7. MLB, Orioles vs. Blue Jays, Saturday, Sportsnet: 322,000

8. NHL, Blackhawks at Sharks, Saturday, Sportsnet: 227,000

9. Auto racing, F1 Australian Grand Prix, Sunday, TSN: 216,000

10. NBA, Trailblazers at Raptors, Sunday, Sportsnet: 215,000

11. Women's world curling, Canada vs. Sweden, Sunday, TSN: 213,000

12. Soccer, W. Ham-Arsenal/WBA-Stk, Saturday, TSN: 195,000

13. NBA, Heat at Raptors, Friday, Sportsnet One: 190,000

13. NHL, Red Wings at Penguins, Sunday, Sportsnet: 190,000

15. Soccer, Southampton at Chelsea, Sunday, Sportsnet: 181,000

16. MLB, Orioles vs. Jays, Friday, Sportsnet: 164,000

17. Speed skating, world short-track championships, Sunday, CBC: 129,000

18. Soccer, QPR at Crystal Palace, Saturday, Sportsnet: 121,000

19. Women's world curling, Canada vs. Finland, Saturday, TSN: 119,000

19. Soccer, Tottenham at Man U, Sunday, Sportsnet: 119,000

21. UFC, preliminaries, Saturday, TSN: 116,000

22. MLS, Vancouver at Chicago, Saturday, TSN: 96,000

22. Soccer, Leicester at Hull, Saturday, Sportsnet: 96,000

24. Speed skating, world short-track championships, Saturday, CBC: 91,000

25. Hockey, CIS men's final, Sunday, Sportsnet 360: 61,000

26. NHL, Hometown Hockey pre-game, Sunday, City: 60,000

27. MLS, Toronto FC at Columbus, Saturday, TSN: 58,000

28. Basketball, CIS men's final, Sunday, Sportsnet One/360: 53,000
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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A little late to the conversation but here are my thoughts:

-Whitecaps home games look GREAT on TV. I watched the season opener and it made me want to go to a live game next time I am in Vancouver.

-I would rather sit in a crowded endzone section than a half empty upper bowl section on the 55 yard line.

-Not even a lower bowl seat on the 55 yard line gives you a better vantage point than watching the game in HD at home. The screen at BCP does help to give you the "best of both worlds" experience but going to the game is about the live fan experience. If sight-lines are your priority than watching from home on a good HD TV is your best option (and for those who choose to stay home see my first point).
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David
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sj-roc wrote:I believe you've posted about this before, a picture from an Argos game where they had tarps on the 500 level bearing the images of popular past players. I would welcome the same in a lower bowl-only setting.
I am not exactly sure of the year(s) they did this, but I believe it was during the C&S ownership era. I think everyone would agree this is impressive would represent a massive upgrade over just closing the Upper Bowl.

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David
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sj-roc wrote:Mayenknecht for whatever reason seems pretty keen on the Whitecaps as a growth industry sufficiently robust to soon overtake the Lions on the local sporting landscape. But the latest ratings, as Moj even pointed out that day, indicate the Caps don't really pose much of threat on that front, at least not in the short term.
This isn't the first time Mayenknecht has "gone there." Numerous times in the past 2 years either on Twitter or on air he's broached the notion of the Whitecaps being the #2 sports property in the city (it's always when the Whitecaps have something big going on too, and the Lions are either losing or are dormant).

Do you really think Seattle media types spend any time worrying about whether the Mariners or Sounders are the 2nd biggest sports teams in the market? No. People there just go out and support their teams, college or pro, seemingly without any regard to where teams fit in the pecking order.


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sj-roc
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David wrote:
sj-roc wrote:Mayenknecht for whatever reason seems pretty keen on the Whitecaps as a growth industry sufficiently robust to soon overtake the Lions on the local sporting landscape. But the latest ratings, as Moj even pointed out that day, indicate the Caps don't really pose much of threat on that front, at least not in the short term.
This isn't the first time Mayenknecht has "gone there." Numerous times in the past 2 years either on Twitter or on air he's broached the notion of the Whitecaps being the #2 sports property in the city (it's always when the Whitecaps have something big going on too, and the Lions are either losing or are dormant).

Do you really think Seattle media types spend any time worrying about whether the Mariners or Sounders are the 2nd biggest sports teams in the market? No. People there just go out and support their teams, college or pro, seemingly without any regard to where teams fit in the pecking order.


DH :cool:
Well said, David — I've been noticing that, too. Moj two Saturdays ago really got to the crux of the matter during their crossover segment when he compared the TV numbers. I wonder if TM will have anything to say this weekend about those latest ratings I quoted above. I'd be interested to know if he has any sort of stake in the Caps as it would be a HUGE conflict of interest for him to be cheerleading like this. I can't be sure but I think TSN (radio) would have some sort of COI guidelines, considering what happened recently with that evening tv news anchor in Toronto who got canned (forget his name, Leslie something or other, I think).

What's the over/under on the next time he brings this up? I'm thinking Women's World Cup at the latest. I can just hear him gushing about WWC attendance figures, and making "guilt"-by-association arguments that the popularity of this soccer tournament is part of his grand theory that Caps > Lions, perhaps while forlornly mentioning how it forced the Lions' preseason game out of the building — never mind that the Caps were also ousted and that the event is actually a bigger inconvenience for them than the Lions as it comes while their regular season is well underway and forces a longer local absence upon them, and more regular season road games in a row that they have to play in this stretch.

But I guess he's got four hours of radio to fill, so he's gotta talk about something — so why not recycle that same story-in-a-can once again.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Spud387
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I find comparing Whitecaps TV #s against Lions TV #s to be a different beast.

The Whitecaps are a regional draw on TV (likely only those in the Lower Mainland or in the opponent's region, if in Canada, will watch).

The Lions, and the CFL in general are a bigger national draw. As a Lions fan, how many CFL games do you catch that do not involve the Lions? I believe the average CFL fan watches more than just their local team play.

I'd like to know, do we have any figures on the Lower Mainland only viewership #s for a Lions game?
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sj-roc
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Spud387 wrote:I find comparing Whitecaps TV #s against Lions TV #s to be a different beast.

The Whitecaps are a regional draw on TV (likely only those in the Lower Mainland or in the opponent's region, if in Canada, will watch).

The Lions, and the CFL in general are a bigger national draw. As a Lions fan, how many CFL games do you catch that do not involve the Lions? I believe the average CFL fan watches more than just their local team play.

I'd like to know, do we have any figures on the Lower Mainland only viewership #s for a Lions game?
This is why if the Whitecaps are ever to overtake the Lions as #2 team in this market as TM likes to throw out there, it's going to take a generation or so. It helps the Lions to play in a more solidly entrenched league with a lot of history and tradition behind it. For example, every CFL team/market, even Ott who have only played about five of the last 20 seasons, can scare up at least a decent handful of former players they can trot out at any given halftime for fans to get all nostalgic over. MLS doesn't really have any of this yet — but give them 25 years to build it up to that point and then you might see TM's visions come to pass, as Moj said two weeks ago.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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