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jmc24
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Anyone else get the email that their upper bowl seasons tickets will be relocated to the lower bowl? Thanks for the heads up Skulsky. I can't watch football from 20 yards up. They may have finally lost me and my 4 seats...

Mod note - changing the title of this thread as discussion has morphed into so many off-field areas. Thanks. DH
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Toppy Vann
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While fans should have been careful what they wished for as now they've got it and the Lions have copied if this is correct.

The benefits ONLY accrue to the BC Lions:

1. Predictable cost structure. No need to open up new areas and add extra costs for security, cleaning etc.
2. Potential for more revenue per seat as the market (ECON 101) supply and demand will drive up demand as seats will be scarce if they win and up go your ticket prices.
3. Forces fans to buy season tickets as it will be a huge driver. (I think the Whitecaps maintain that they will not open up upper even for select games where maybe a big draw comes to town).


Dis-benefits to Fans:

1. Scalpers will be costly if fans decide to go to a big game later in the season and it's a sell out. These slime buckets always seem to find a way to get tickets. In fact they'll likely be lining up tomorrow to buy if no upper deck!
2. Out of towners who take in just a few games could be toast.
3. Last minute walk ups could be eliminated.
4. Taxpayers (fans) paid for the stadium and now a private owner is restricting (rightl so as it is a business) seating.
5. In time prices could rival the Canucks where they have limited seating.

Skulsky and his survey of his fans income levels is going to drive this franchise into oblivion with the lack of vision and actual marketing into new groups and residents downtown. I suspect Bobby Ackles would have tried to fill the stadium versus go this route.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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The_Pauser
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Toppy Vann wrote:While fans should have been careful what they wished for as now they've got it and the Lions have copied if this is correct.

The benefits ONLY accrue to the BC Lions:

1. Predictable cost structure. No need to open up new areas and add extra costs for security, cleaning etc.
2. Potential for more revenue per seat as the market (ECON 101) supply and demand will drive up demand as seats will be scarce if they win and up go your ticket prices.
3. Forces fans to buy season tickets as it will be a huge driver. (I think the Whitecaps maintain that they will not open up upper even for select games where maybe a big draw comes to town).


Dis-benefits to Fans:

1. Scalpers will be costly if fans decide to go to a big game later in the season and it's a sell out. These slime buckets always seem to find a way to get tickets. In fact they'll likely be lining up tomorrow to buy if no upper deck!
2. Out of towners who take in just a few games could be toast.
3. Last minute walk ups could be eliminated.
4. Taxpayers (fans) paid for the stadium and now a private owner is restricting (rightl so as it is a business) seating.
5. In time prices could rival the Canucks where they have limited seating.

Skulsky and his survey of his fans income levels is going to drive this franchise into oblivion with the lack of vision and actual marketing into new groups and residents downtown. I suspect Bobby Ackles would have tried to fill the stadium versus go this route.
I have to disagree with your doom and gloom take. Bob Ackles ran a stadium that had closed off the upper deck as well, and things worked out in the long run. To create a better atmosphere for everyone the Lions are closing the upper deck to have fans more close together. I noticed last year people were starting to get a bit too spaced out due to declining ticket sales. When ticket sales are in the 24k range and the lower bowl seats 30k, it's better to have 24k all in the lower bowl than 18-20k in the lower bowl and 4-6k in the upper bowl.

Create some demand for tickets, build a winning team that's exciting to watch, and eventually fans will come back and force the team to re-open the upper bowl. For now I think it's not a bad strategy to take.
Roar you Lions roar!
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SammyGreene
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With renewals reportedly hovering around 65 percent it almost had to be done. Always have enjoyed the view from up top but it's an atmosphere killer and not great optics to have big chunks of empty seats in the lower bowl. Will be interesting to see if they will continue the discount sections down below.
TheLionKing
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SammyGreene wrote:With renewals reportedly hovering around 65 percent it almost had to be done. Always have enjoyed the view from up top but it's an atmosphere killer and not great optics to have big chunks of empty seats in the lower bowl. Will be interesting to see if they will continue the discount sections down below.
I doubt it. They will probably raise the prices to maximize revenue.
dupsdell1
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I think they had to go this route when the new bc place opened up right away Dennis was assuming they were going to get 35,000 a game because of the new roof etc. well there are a lot of people that think bc place is still a joke to go see a game , yes it has a nice opened retractable roof but that is it , when bc place opened up in 1983 there was nothing like it in the world and Vancouver new it, Know bc place has become old , so they have to do something .
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sj-roc
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The_Pauser wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:While fans should have been careful what they wished for as now they've got it and the Lions have copied if this is correct.

The benefits ONLY accrue to the BC Lions:

1. Predictable cost structure. No need to open up new areas and add extra costs for security, cleaning etc.
2. Potential for more revenue per seat as the market (ECON 101) supply and demand will drive up demand as seats will be scarce if they win and up go your ticket prices.
3. Forces fans to buy season tickets as it will be a huge driver. (I think the Whitecaps maintain that they will not open up upper even for select games where maybe a big draw comes to town).


Dis-benefits to Fans:

1. Scalpers will be costly if fans decide to go to a big game later in the season and it's a sell out. These slime buckets always seem to find a way to get tickets. In fact they'll likely be lining up tomorrow to buy if no upper deck!
2. Out of towners who take in just a few games could be toast.
3. Last minute walk ups could be eliminated.
4. Taxpayers (fans) paid for the stadium and now a private owner is restricting (rightl so as it is a business) seating.
5. In time prices could rival the Canucks where they have limited seating.

Skulsky and his survey of his fans income levels is going to drive this franchise into oblivion with the lack of vision and actual marketing into new groups and residents downtown. I suspect Bobby Ackles would have tried to fill the stadium versus go this route.
I have to disagree with your doom and gloom take. Bob Ackles ran a stadium that had closed off the upper deck as well, and things worked out in the long run. To create a better atmosphere for everyone the Lions are closing the upper deck to have fans more close together. I noticed last year people were starting to get a bit too spaced out due to declining ticket sales. When ticket sales are in the 24k range and the lower bowl seats 30k, it's better to have 24k all in the lower bowl than 18-20k in the lower bowl and 4-6k in the upper bowl.

Create some demand for tickets, build a winning team that's exciting to watch, and eventually fans will come back and force the team to re-open the upper bowl. For now I think it's not a bad strategy to take.
Yeah, but the thing is, Ackles had a PLAN to grow the crowds and he put it into action. He inherited a franchise whose average attendance in the six seasons before his 2002 return was a woeful 20,134. In 2005 we began a streak of averaging over 30k for four years in row, which was and continues to be only the second time in franchise history that this feat was accomplished.

So what's Skulsky's plan to get back to selling tickets upstairs?

I agree with Toppy that closing upstairs seating is a backward step for this franchise. I'm assuming that fans who are being told to move downstairs have been given the option to cancel their season tickets for a full refund since the Lions are not going to deliver on the product that was originally sold to these customers? This could represent further attrition.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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DanoT
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I guess I will be contacting the Lions to let them know it is not worth it for me to come over from Victoria for a 3 game pak if I can't sit low down in the upper deck between the 50 yard lines.
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The_Pauser
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Wow. I'm sorry to say but I think people are expecting way too much. Perhaps even spoiled by recent successes and perks. I don't care at all about being able to sit in the Upper deck. Yeah it sucks that we're closing it down because we aren't getting the ticket sales. Vancouver is a bandwagon town. Always has been, always will be. But I truly am shocked that people who are more than just a casual fan would stop supporting the team they love just because they can't sit upstairs. I've sat in the end zone, in the corner, and at mid-field. I would sit anywhere to experience the game and support my team. To each their own I guess, but I am surprised.

Dennis is not Bob Ackles. Nobody can or will ever replace what he brought to this organization. Dennis is Dennis and while you may not agree with some things that he does (or doesn't do) he will always fall short in comparison to Bob Ackles. He's in a spot where he was always going to be compared to a legend. It's not an enviable spot to be in as those are unfillable shoes to fill. Regardless, I think he's done a decent job. The Operation Orange trips are innovative and an excellent concept. And I really don't think closing down the upper bowl to impose a more intimate fan atmosphere is such a bad idea.
It worked in the past and will hopefully work again.

Also don't forget that Ackles was around in the pre-HD area. Nowadays almost everyone has an HDTV and the ability to watch every home game on TV for free. Skulsky has to compete with this, and it most certainly has had an effect on ticket sales. Not that more exposure is a bad thing, but it's tough to compare the two eras when they aren't faced with the same issues.
Roar you Lions roar!
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sj-roc
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The_Pauser wrote:Wow. I'm sorry to say but I think people are expecting way too much. Perhaps even spoiled by recent successes and perks. I don't care at all about being able to sit in the Upper deck. Yeah it sucks that we're closing it down because we aren't getting the ticket sales. Vancouver is a bandwagon town. Always has been, always will be. But I truly am shocked that people who are more than just a casual fan would stop supporting the team they love just because they can't sit upstairs. I've sat in the end zone, in the corner, and at mid-field. I would sit anywhere to experience the game and support my team. To each their own I guess, but I am surprised.

Dennis is not Bob Ackles. Nobody can or will ever replace what he brought to this organization. Dennis is Dennis and while you may not agree with some things that he does (or doesn't do) he will always fall short in comparison to Bob Ackles. He's in a spot where he was always going to be compared to a legend. It's not an enviable spot to be in as those are unfillable shoes to fill. Regardless, I think he's done a decent job. The Operation Orange trips are innovative and an excellent concept. And I really don't think closing down the upper bowl to impose a more intimate fan atmosphere is such a bad idea.
It worked in the past and will hopefully work again.

Also don't forget that Ackles was around in the pre-HD area. Nowadays almost everyone has an HDTV and the ability to watch every home game on TV for free. Skulsky has to compete with this, and it most certainly has had an effect on ticket sales. Not that more exposure is a bad thing, but it's tough to compare the two eras when they aren't faced with the same issues.
You make some good points but I have to agree with Toppy that this move has more drawbacks than benefits for fans. This added intimacy will come at a price.

It's a bit unfortunate for the Lions that the historical average attendance has hovered around the lower bowl capacity, which can hamper the optics of the decision whether or not to close the upper deck. We've had enough crowds exceed this average sufficently and had the UD open often enough that closing it down is always going to be a negatively framed act. If the 55k seats had say, a 35k/20k lower/upper split instead of the more 50/50-like current one, we'd almost never use the UD except for playoffs and this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I suppose it should also be noted that it seems the Lions had only planned to use the first five rows of the upper deck between the goal lines behind the Lions bench anyway; so this only represents a closing off of about two or maybe three thousand seats. It's just that closing the UD off entirely comes off as a bit of a downer.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Rammer
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It is a mistake to take away options, ultimately one of the reasons that ticket sales have diminished is the price point. This move will only escalate that point, further diminishing ST sales. How happy would you be if you were one of the ST holders in the UD, have purchased a ST and then get told that you will have to readjust to what is available in the LD? There is no need to further distance your ST purchasers, and limiting the UD options had to reduce costs to the point of being insignificant, with the potential of opening up many more seats for the games that require it seamlessly.

I haven't been happy with the LIons front office moves since the passing of BA, and this just adds to the dumping that is now common on the fans. Lions are putting up barriers when they need to be trying to break every one down for their fans.
Entertainment value = an all time low
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sj-roc
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It seems the original 2015 marketing & promotions thread was erased after last week's site issues; we might as well (I propose) turn this thread into its replacement.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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jcalhoun
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Hey all,

I don't think it's accurate to say the fanbase expects Dennis Skulsky to attain the same sort of stature, or live up to the successes of Bobby Ackles. We're all fans here, right? We're into the inside baseball stuff: there's discussions of marketing and draft picks and how to coach offensive lineman. We know and can cite the changes these men have made to the organization, the effects, etc. But most fans can't. At all.

Dennis Skulsky isn't driving away the fans who know who Bobby Ackles is, what he achieved and what he stood for. Dennis Skulsky is driving away the fans who just want a night out and something to cheer for. And that is the biggest threat the Lions face.

Under Dennis Skulsky, the Lions have remained profitable for their owner and so he will keep his job until Braley dies or sells the team. But the first move any new owner will take is to fire Skulsky, who has squeezed larger profits from a smaller customer base. As the customer base shrinks, so does the profile of the team. The hallmark of Skulsky's business career is to degrade the product and keep/get the ledger in the black. That's his M.O. Think of all the newspapers he was a part of: did any of them get better under his tenure? Did circulation increase? Did quality increase? CanWest, Hollinger, the National Post....anyone see a trend? I rarely buy newspapers anymore and used to subscribe to three, because the quality of the content nosedived: the newspaper reading experience became tedious and unrewarding, just as the gameday experience has.

Sooner or later, maybe ten-fifteen years from now, we will cite Skulsky's stewardship of this team as the critical juncture that led to a 90's-like decline. Or maybe I'm wrong. But what do the numbers tell you?

I also think the argument that people would rather watch on their HD televisions is a bs argument that has no basis in reality. It isn't that people want to watch at home. It's that people don't want to go the stadium. There's a profound difference there, but blaming the appearance of HD TV is an easy scapegoat for the media (who are halfwits) and those running the business end of things (who are mercenary halfwits).

I don't have an HD TV. None of my friends or associates who are nominally football fans have HD TVs or cable packages. I "follow" the team by coordinating tedious computer work during game times, and have a video or radio stream open at the same time. Two years ago I'd watch TSN's game archive a day or two later; when they stopped enabling non-rogers/bell subscribers that option, I stopped watching non-Lions games altogether.

Over the last two plus years I have become an incredibly indifferent fan. I've gone to one game each season, out of a sort of misguided sense that I ought to, in much the same way I occasionally go to church. And like attending a Christmas/Easter service, I exit each game remembering just why I can't be bothered to make the effort consistently.

I'm not alone. This is Skulsky's legacy.

Cheers,

James
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Toppy Vann
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It's great to be an optimist but we also need to be realists. If that was Skulsky in TEXAS at the FA Camp shovelling snow he's focused on all the wrong things and in the wrong places.

Ackles as SJ-ROC notes had a plan on returning here and it was working and his message was consistent as to how they were building. I don't get that same message these days. It's like they think just win baby and fans will emerge - but that is fictional.

In Hong Kong I see Eng. and other Europe based soccer teams swing through here in pre-season - not because they like the weather - but MARKETING.

The CFL relies fully on TSN which is so successful for football it's hurting team gates. The CFL and teams need to market to get fans to experience the game in the stadium as much as have the TSN broadcasts successful as they are.

I'm old enough to recall the Lions downtown and present at events and getting out their message but now they need to get inroads into ethnic groups which they never ever did.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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JohnHenry
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I agree with the Lions going with the lower bowl only. That configuration looks sharp for the Whitecaps creating a more intimate atmosphere. The problem is the Lions draw crowds of over 30,000 for some games every year (the lower bowl only seats about 28,000 now). Back in the mid-2000's when the Lions compressed 30,000 fans in the lower bowl, there were nearly 10,000 fans sitting behind the goal lines...while premium seats on the 55 yard line upper deck sat empty. At least nobody will even see the upper deck now. Season ticket holders will probably snap up all the sideline seats, so walk-up or out-of-town fans will be sitting in the endzone.

The Lions aren't alone with the downsizing of their CFL stadium. After the Argos relocate to BMO, the entire East division will play in 24,000 - 25,000 seat stadiums. That doesn't mean the league is on a downslide, it's actually never been stronger. Great owners, great new stadiums that are right-sized and will generate substantial revenue streams for their teams, i.e. Ticats, RedBlacks, Bombers, Riders. The ownership is rock-solid now too. No Gleibermen, Horn Chen's or Feteriks. CFL TV ratings are second only to the NHL in Canada (although the NFL ratings did surge last year, probably due to Seahawks being the "home" team on cable in Vancouver and Calgary.) The CFL ratings are higher than the Blue Jays, MLS, NBA or any other league. TSN's new TV contract more than doubled the revenue each team is receiving.

A packed lower bowl will very likely be a lot of fun for the fans. Frankly, even 30,000 in the cavernous B.C. Place lacks atmosphere and intimacy. This will be a positive move for the Lions and their season ticket campaign.
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