Free Agent Wish List

[pennw]

I'd take Bear Woods if he were available and wanted to come here. Definitely the last part of our roster that would need a player of his calibre, but would allow us to operate a 3-4 defense. A linebacking core featuring Solly, Biggie, and Woods would be the best linebacking group in league history.

Going 3-4 would be a huge change not just in scheme but personnel. With the sort of impact Woods had for Montreal in the second half of the season he wouldn't come cheap. There's more than a couple of teams who desperately need a true MLB and would be willing to pay significant coin to get someone of his calibre. Winnipeg and Saskatchewan immediately spring to mind as teams with glaring holes in the middle of their LB corps. To go after someone like Woods with the intent of doing to a 3-4 is to go all-in and sink or swim with it. Once you go down that path it can be difficult to switch back mid-season if you find it isn't working. Part of that is because it would mean a revamp of the DL personnel as there is need for some different skillsets and body types for running 3 down linemen vs 4. Bazzie would become redundant for starters as there would be no spot for a 230# rush end in a 3 man front. It may require a change of DC too. Washington may have never played in a 3-4.

Linebacker is not a weakness for BC , so why spend big to get a linebacker ? We have a couple , as already noted , waiting in the wings in Hoffman- Ellis and Lokombo . If we got money to throw at free-agents why not try and address an area of need ? QB and O-line spring to mind .

[Hambone]

Linebacker is not a weakness for BC , so why spend big to get a linebacker ? We have a couple , as already noted , waiting in the wings in Hoffman- Ellis and Lokombo . If we got money to throw at free-agents why not try and address an area of need ? QB and O-line spring to mind .

Egg-zactly. Chasing free agents on the open market means winning a competitive bidding process. That ultimately means overpaying to a certain extent. If we want to overpay we'd better do it in areas of need. LB is not a need.

As for the 3-4 concept when was the last time a CFL team ran a 3-4 as their base defence? I'm sure some have but can't recall any in the last 15 years or so. Sports being the monkey-see, monkey-do business it is one would think if somebody found success with it others would follow.

[squishy35]

Linebacker is not a weakness for BC , so why spend big to get a linebacker ? We have a couple , as already noted , waiting in the wings in Hoffman- Ellis and Lokombo . If we got money to throw at free-agents why not try and address an area of need ? QB and O-line spring to mind .

Egg-zactly. Chasing free agents on the open market means winning a competitive bidding process. That ultimately means overpaying to a certain extent. If we want to overpay we'd better do it in areas of need. LB is not a need.

As for the 3-4 concept when was the last time a CFL team ran a 3-4 as their base defence? I'm sure some have but can't recall any in the last 15 years or so. Sports being the monkey-see, monkey-do business it is one would think if somebody found success with it others would follow.

Quite likely it was Winnipeg in the mid eighties. IIRC they ran a 3 - 4 defence in the rivalry years against the Lions.

[pennw]

No CFL team would run 4 lb's anymore .They all pretty much only run 2 now with 6 or 7 db's behind 3 or 4 DL . The 3rd LB is really just another DB now . Where we need to improve is in the trenches on both sides of the ball and QB .

[South Pender]

Well, maybe a 3-4 isn't in the cards for the Lions, but I can't help but marvel at the 49ers' and Cardinals' current and really suffocating 3-4 schemes. It requires very fast and agile linebackers--and the 49ers and Cardinals have those in spades--but so too do the Lions, I think. Clearly Elimimian and Bighill are very fast closers, and Hoffman-Ellis's combine speed was an astounding (for a LB) 4.54. Bo Lokombo is also fast (4.66 at the combine). It has been said that you need a big nose tackle to make this scheme work, but if you look at the Cardinals, they have their interior linemen playing mainly 3-technique. I think that with Taylor, Westerman, and Smith (and possibly Bazzie), we might have enough talent for the D-line, although picking up another big guy via trade or free-agency might be a good idea.

Just my $.02. It will, of course, depend entirely on the new coaching faces in the Lions' den.

[aklawitter]

I seem to remember Ritchie preferring a 3-4 in his stint as DC.

[pennw]

I seem to remember Ritchie preferring a 3-4 in his stint as DC.

How long ago was this ? 20 or more years ago?

[B.C.FAN]

The Lions went into 2011 with a base 3-4 when Mike Benevides was DC. The team started 0-5 and the Lions were last in the league in defence after five games before they blew everything up and started over.

Eric Taylor, Aaron Hunt and Keron Williams were listed as the starting defensive linemen heading into training camp, with Brent Johnson and Khalif Mitchel as backups. Solomon Elimimian and Anton McKenzie were listed as starting inside linebackers, Adam Leonard started outside and Korey Banks was the nickel back. They also had Adam Bighill, Anthony Reddick, Joe Henderson and James Yurichuk as part of a deep and talented LB corps. That didn't win them anything.

[pennw]

The Lions went into 2011 with a base 3-4 when Mike Benevides was DC. The team started 0-5 and the Lions were last in the league in defence after five games before they blew everything up and started over.

Eric Taylor, Aaron Hunt and Keron Williams were listed as the starting defensive linemen heading into training camp, with Brent Johnson and Khalif Mitchel as backups. Solomon Elimimian and Anton McKenzie were listed as starting inside linebackers, Adam Leonard started outside and Korey Banks was the nickel back. They also had Adam Bighill, Anthony Reddick, Joe Henderson and James Yurichuk as part of a deep and talented LB corps. That didn't win them anything.

But it wasn't Ritchie at that time running a 3-4 . Ritchie was running the 3-4 long before that . As you note it was a failure with the team going 0-5 with that defense and after they scrapped it they turned things around . Why would we want to go back to something that failed for us ? Many of us cringe when we see the 3 man rush now .

[Blitz]

The Lions went into 2011 with a base 3-4 when Mike Benevides was DC. The team started 0-5 and the Lions were last in the league in defence after five games before they blew everything up and started over.

Eric Taylor, Aaron Hunt and Keron Williams were listed as the starting defensive linemen heading into training camp, with Brent Johnson and Khalif Mitchel as backups. Solomon Elimimian and Anton McKenzie were listed as starting inside linebackers, Adam Leonard started outside and Korey Banks was the nickel back. They also had Adam Bighill, Anthony Reddick, Joe Henderson and James Yurichuk as part of a deep and talented LB corps. That didn't win them anything.

But it wasn't Ritchie at that time running a 3-4 . Ritchie was running the 3-4 long before that . As you note it was a failure with the team going 0-5 with that defense and after they scrapped it they turned things around . Why would we want to go back to something that failed for us ? Many of us cringe when we see the 3 man rush now .

Most CFL and NFl teams use both 4-3 and a 3-4 defense these days. Most defenses use a base 4-3 and use a version of the 3-4 on some passing downs. For teams that use a base 3-4, they will sometimes go with a 4-3 formation on certain downs, either bringing in an extra defensive lineman or lining up a linebacker on the defensive line.

The days of a defense being in one standard formation almost all of the time are long gone.

[South Pender]

But it wasn't Ritchie at that time running a 3-4 . Ritchie was running the 3-4 long before that . As you note it was a failure with the team going 0-5 with that defense and after they scrapped it they turned things around . Why would we want to go back to something that failed for us ? Many of us cringe when we see the 3 man rush now .

A 3-4 defense doesn't mean a 3-man rush. The outside backers are pass rushers too. Just reflect on how many times Clay Matthews has sacked opposing QBs out of Dom Capers' 3-4 in Green Bay. And in Sunday's Seahawks win over the 49ers, 2 of the 5 sacks of Russell Wilson were by 49ers' OLBs operating out of SF's really excellent 3-4.

[pennw]

Most CFL and NFl teams use both 4-3 and a 3-4 defense these days. Most defenses use a base 4-3 and use a version of the 3-4 on some passing downs. For teams that use a base 3-4, they will sometimes go with a 4-3 formation on certain downs, either bringing in an extra defensive lineman or lining up a linebacker on the defensive line.

The days of a defense being in one standard formation almost all of the time are long gone.

I've seen the 3 man front many times as I alluded to in my previous post , but I don't recall seeing 4 linebackers behind them in recent years . Isn't the extra man brought in not usually a DB ? If so , it is not a traditional 3-4 defense . The usual base defense seems to be actually a 4-2-6 alignment and then they go to a 3-2-7 on passing downs from what i can see . Korey Banks played one of the so called linebacker spots , but he was under 200 lbs and he was really a just another DB playing closer up . Our linebackers even are going into pass coverage more often then not these days , something Bighill is frequently asked to do .
SP , you keep bringing up NFL comparisons , but are you not comparing apples to oranges there ? The NFL is a different Game with bigger players covering a smaller area and one more down . Their linebackers are bigger then a lot of our DE's . Cameron Wake was a DE here at 250lbs , now he weighs in at about 260 playing linebacker in the NFL . We don't have nearly as many real big DT's as they do playing those 3-4 alignments , they usually have 3 pretty big guys plus linebackers the size of our DE's so really completely different personnel . And we do pass rush sometimes with DB's too .The traditional 3-4 alignment seems long gone , BC did try it in 2011 for a short time and the Bombers used it back in the 80's all the time , I think the Argos may have used it for a time too . But it seems to have gone the way of the old 2 back offense now in the CFL (but not in the NFL).

[South Pender]

Most CFL and NFl teams use both 4-3 and a 3-4 defense these days. Most defenses use a base 4-3 and use a version of the 3-4 on some passing downs. For teams that use a base 3-4, they will sometimes go with a 4-3 formation on certain downs, either bringing in an extra defensive lineman or lining up a linebacker on the defensive line.

The days of a defense being in one standard formation almost all of the time are long gone.

I've seen the 3 man front many times as I alluded to in my previous post , but I don't recall seeing 4 linebackers behind them in recent years . Isn't the extra man brought in not usually a DB ? If so , it is not a traditional 3-4 defense . The usual base defense seems to be actually a 4-2-6 alignment and then they go to a 3-2-7 on passing downs from what i can see . Korey Banks played one of the so called linebacker spots , but he was under 200 lbs and he was really a just another DB playing closer up . Our linebackers even are going into pass coverage more often then not these days , something Bighill is frequently asked to do .
SP , you keep bringing up NFL comparisons , but are you not comparing apples to oranges there ? The NFL is a different Game with bigger players covering a smaller area and one more down . Their linebackers are bigger then a lot of our DE's . Cameron Wake was a DE here at 250lbs , now he weighs in at about 260 playing linebacker in the NFL . We don't have nearly as many real big DT's as they do playing those 3-4 alignments , they usually have 3 pretty big guys plus linebackers the size of our DE's so really completely different personnel . And we do pass rush sometimes with DB's too .The traditional 3-4 alignment seems long gone , BC did try it in 2011 for a short time and the Bombers used it back in the 80's all the time , I think the Argos may have used it for a time too . But it seems to have gone the way of the old 2 back offense now in the CFL (but not in the NFL).

In terms of the fundamentals of the game, the comparison between the CFL and NFL is, in my view, not that of apples to oranges, but rather apples to slightly-larger apples. The size differences appear all the way through the lineup--defense and offense. The main difference defensively lies in the secondaries, with two HBs and a safety (what would be the free safety in the American game) in the Canadian game vs. two safeties, one strong, and usually lined up closer to the LOS, and the other a free safety responsible for preventing the longer ball, in the US game. With respect to DL and LB alignments, they are mainly similar.

It's true that Banks played the SAM backer spot, although, at 5-10, 185, was greatly undersized by LB standards. My thinking is that Alex Hoffman-Ellis, who is true CFL LB size, can man that spot. Banks was fast and agile, but Hoffman-Ellis is faster--and obviously much bigger at 6-0, 230 (although whether he has Banks's fine instincts and nose for the football remains to be seen). Putting him in one outside spot of the now 4 LBs and Lokombo (also fast) at the other outside spot (and having Elimimian and Bighill play the two middle positions) should set us up well to defend against the pass. As Blitz has noted, we don't need to always work out of one defensive set. On 2nd (and obvious passing) downs, the 3-4 could be brought in, with a 4-3, perhaps, on 1st down, particularly against teams with a solid running game.

In any case, the main point is that we're set at LB (and may be OK in the secondary), and, as far as the defense is concerned, should focus in the off-season on finding at least one more big D-line guy.

[pennw]

In the CFL you still have o-lines that are well over 300 lbs just like the NFL but smaller d-linemen and linebackers so there is more of a difference than you think . We only have one guy over 300lbs on our d-line and one under 230lbs . So with our existing personnel we would have Taylor at 309 lbs , Smith at 270 lbs and Bazzie at 228 lbs trying to push against o-lines that are all well over 300lbs on average . And that is against 5-7 guys all over 300 , you can't see them getting worn out ? 228lb Bazzie vs a 320lb OT when they are in run the ball down our throat mode ? In the NFL they would probably have their d-line averaging close to 300 with probably a guy in the middle who is bigger than almost all the o-linemen . Then backed up by a bunch of 250lb linebackers .Here linebackers would not be very good at covering slotbacks for a whole game(and that is required here to counter the spread offenses ) . A linebacker may be fast in straight line speed , but at 230lbs do you think they have the same agility as 185lb DB's ? Agility is just as important there as straight line speed and physics dictates that a 230lb body can not change directions at speed as well as a 185 lb body . Yes I do think comparing NFL to CFL is an apples to oranges comparison , different demands that's why they have different body type athletes .Just had a look at the 49er's depth chart and they have one linebacker that weighs 265 , another at 259 and the next 2 at 248 and 240 for their starting 4 . That's almost as big as some CFL d-lines , so they have run defense covered . Do you think they expect those big linebackers to cover wide receivers for a whole game ? I still recall the early 90's when WB's Stamps ran the 6 receiver offense against our traditional 4-3 defense and killed us with it every game , with our traditional 230lbs linebackers hopelessly out matched against their slotbacks .Totally different games SP . The wider field makes a lot of difference . There's good reason ALL CFL teams use more DB's now . Just my opinion , not looking for further debate . And you're entitled to your opinion .

Why do you think no one runs 3-4 defenses(utilizing 4 linebackers) in the CFL anymore ?

[notahomer]

I like both games (NFL & CFL). At the same time there are obvious differences. Trestman ended up doing well, IMO, up here but it took some brainfarts during the early part of that first season.

At first look considering how much struggles we've had getting D-line versus linebackers, one would think the 3-4 WOULD be a great option but of course, things are never that simple. That is one part of media bits like Coachs Playbook that I like. Finding stuff on how plays are broken down, designed etc... is easy for NFL games but a little more challenging for CFL games.