Lions' Post Season and on into 2015

The Place for BC Lion Discussion. A forum for Lions fans to talk and chat about our team.
Discussion, News, Information and Speculation regarding the BC Lions and the CFL.
Prowl, Growl and Roar!

Moderator: Team Captains

Post Reply
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

South Pender wrote:
ballhawk wrote:Oh get serious WestCoastJoe!!
Seconded, whoops, missed TLK's post. OK, thirded. My goodness, I remember not so long ago (last spring, I think) a forum member accusing another member (and a Mod at that!) of plagiarism! And not a peep of admonition. Ballhawk's comments pale into complete insignificance in comparison. Wait, let me rephrase that: The hostility found in Ballhawk's comments (and there really wasn't any) pales into complete and utter insignificance in comparison with that found with the plagiarism charge.
South Pender, when I took a sabbatical, you knew it was because of you. You apologized privately. You knew how much of a pain you can be. You are a very skilled agitator. It was evident to me from that first incident, when you attacked Mike Beamish, and, as a Moderator, I defended his right to some safety here.

You stirred it up pretty well this time with all that hindsight stirring, which had nothing to do with you, until you made it your business.

You stirred it up pretty well accusing members of excoriating Wally Buono. Such moral superiority.

You are a trouble maker.

Same as always.

Run for office here. Get out front.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

Joe, do we get an apology for your hostile plagiarism accusation? And the hindsight reference was not initially from me. Remember identifying the member who made it at the time?

Joe, pour yourself a stiff drink, take two aspirins, and go to bed. You'll feel better in the morning.
Last edited by South Pender on Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
B.C.FAN
Team Captain
Posts: 12590
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:28 pm

Can we call a timeout in this discussion? For years, I've kept a Bob Ackles quote in my signature line to remind me not to get too full of myself and pretend to know more about football than the professionals who study film and take to the practice field every day. We're all passionate fans who freely exchange thoughts and criticism. No one has a monopoly on truth and wisdom. A healthy exchange of ideas is good. Attacking people who disagree with our opinions is unhealthy.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

South Pender wrote:Joe, do we get an apology for your hostile plagiarism accusation? And the hindsight reference was not initially from me. Remember identifying the member who made it at the time?

Joe, pour yourself a stiff drink, take two aspirins, and go to bed. You'll feel better in the morning.
Admit your hostility, South Pender.

Your apology, accepted in good faith, was not worth anything.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

Admit your arrogance, Joe. Man up and apologize for your own hostility. Beating up ballhawk is just the latest example.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

B.C.FAN wrote:Can we call a timeout in this discussion? For years, I've kept a Bob Ackles quote in my signature line to remind me not to get too full of myself and pretend to know more about football than the professionals who study film and take to the practice field every day. We're all passionate fans who freely exchange thoughts and criticism. No one has a monopoly on truth and wisdom. A healthy exchange of ideas is good. Attacking people who disagree with our opinions is unhealthy.
Fair enough, BCF.

"Attacking people who disagree with our opinions is unhealthy." I read this as, if you disagree strongly with another's opinion, don't comment. Move on from it. Do not moralize.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

South Pender wrote:Admit your arrogance, Joe. Man up and apologize for your own hostility. Beating up ballhawk is just the latest example.
My hostility towards your agitating and trouble making is up front. Where is yours hiding?
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

B.C.FAN wrote:Can we call a timeout in this discussion? For years, I've kept a Bob Ackles quote in my signature line to remind me not to get too full of myself and pretend to know more about football than the professionals who study film and take to the practice field every day. We're all passionate fans who freely exchange thoughts and criticism. No one has a monopoly on truth and wisdom. A healthy exchange of ideas is good. Attacking people who disagree with our opinions is unhealthy.
You're right B.C.FAN. I've posted my last in this thread. Joe can have the last word.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

South Pender wrote:
B.C.FAN wrote:Can we call a timeout in this discussion? For years, I've kept a Bob Ackles quote in my signature line to remind me not to get too full of myself and pretend to know more about football than the professionals who study film and take to the practice field every day. We're all passionate fans who freely exchange thoughts and criticism. No one has a monopoly on truth and wisdom. A healthy exchange of ideas is good. Attacking people who disagree with our opinions is unhealthy.
You're right B.C.FAN. I've posted my last in this thread. Joe can have the last word.
Sleep well, South Pender. You can go to sleep with a smile on your face. You have had a very good day trouble making.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
TheLionKing
Hall of Famer
Posts: 25103
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: Vancouver

Wow, this thread has really gone south
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

TheLionKing wrote:Wow, this thread has really gone south
Not far enough.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

South Pender wrote:
MexicoLionFan wrote:
“It's about winning,” said Buono. “It's not about anything else.”

This must be a new approach for Wally, because it certainly wasn't the case when he appointed MB as HC without doing an exhaustive search for the best candidate, or bypassing on Hufnagel so that he could set the all time Coaching wins record!

Thanks so much Joe for the objective assessment of Kevin Glenn's time here...I have never been a KG "fan", but I truly respect what he accomplished here with what he had to deal with!
Obviously, Wally thought that the Lions would indeed win with Benevides--in the same way that Hufnagel thinks that the Stampeders will win with Dickenson--without doing an exhaustive search. Promoting from within can result in success, and Benevides had spent time as a ST and LB coach, followed by DC, with no red flags (at least none pointed out on this forum) prior to his appointment as HC. He appeared to have paid his dues, and it doesn't seem that anyone on this forum foresaw failure for him as HC at the time of his appointment. Did anyone on the forum lament the absence of an exhaustive search at that time? If not, Cromartie's mention of hindsight bias is relevant. Perhaps someone can dig up the narrative on the forum at the time of Benevides' appointment.

And the Hufnagel issue has been discussed pretty fully on this forum. What coach (Wally) in his prime, with a solid winning record and lots of energy, would turn the job over to another guy, just because that other guy might--and I stress might--do as well or better? Blaming Wally for wanting to continue on the sidelines at that point in his career is unrealistic. I do agree about Glenn. I too respect the guy and wish he was coming back next season--as a backup. All of the above just my opinion, of course.
You bring up a very valid point South Pender in that Calgary and Hufnagel are essentially promoting from within with Dickenson as our Leos and Wally did with Benevedes.

In fact Benevedes had more coaching experience than Dickenson has. Benevedes had been a special teams coordinator as well as a defensive coordinator while Dickenson has only been an offensive coordinator. Benevedes also had coaching experience with more than one CFL team. Benevedes also had a lengthier coaching background.

There is a lot of research on the topic of promoting from within or hiring from the outside.There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

My own personal preference is for an open job posting and a process. I believe that not only serves an organization best but also serves the person who wins the job best. I believe that I posted something to that effect at the time on Lionbackers but then again, perhaps I'm getting older and delusional, so I will check back on my posts at the time of the Benevedes hiring and confirm.

I don't blame Buono for wanting to stay as HC, when we had the chance to hire Hufnagel. Heck, in 2007, when Huf was our consultant, Wally was just coming off winning the Grey Cup. In 2008, his other opportunity to hire Hufnagel, we had won the West regular season and won 9 out of our last 11 games with our 3rd string quarterback. We lost the WDF but we were the best CFL football team in Canada at the time that Huf was hired in Calgary. At that time I also wrote that perhaps that was a good time for Waly to hand the HC position to Hufnagel and concentrate on GM duties ( I will find that post too) but certainly I can more than understand why he didn't.

It's easy to forget that we missed the playoffs in 2010 and had a terrible start to 2011 and then went on to win a Grey Cup and we also had a very good 2012 season, except for our playoff loss. This season we made the playoffs as a cross-over team and lost badly in the Semi-Final.

So we know things have gotten turned around in the past under Buono in B.C. and that is more than possbible for next season. We also have been able to see quick turnarounds in other CFL cities, as we did in Edmonton this season and Hamilton last year and this year.

I'm not a Buono fan in terms of "how" I believe he operates but I also recognize I have been very, very tough on him also. But at the same time, there is no other GM out there that I would want to be our GM at this time. I just want Buono to make some serious changes. I think we need some coaching staff changes and have for a long while now, as well as some philosophy changes in terms of scheme. I believe those outdated scheme philosophies come from Buono and they are present because they were successful for him in the past but are past their due date at this juncture, in today's CFL. Of course, the past can become vogue again in pro football.

I can remember wathcing NFL games when most teams were in the spread and the shotgun. Now, the tight end is so back in vogue in the NFL, the fullback is returning to many NFL offences, and quarterbacks are often taking snaps under center. I was happy seeing Lumbala used as a fullback or tight end often under Chap his last 3 seasons and also that Chap was using a tight end as well. However, I was less happy that Chap was using an extra offensive lineman as his tight end rather than a bigger body who could also catch the football. Of course, we are not developing tight ends in Canadian university football, so a pro team will either need to convert a fullback or draft a big receiver to play that position.

I terms of the present discussion on this thread, most of us on Lionbackers are confident posters who have strong opinions and thoughts on our Leos and CFL football as well as being die hard fans. Its why we write on here. I expect more passion - after all, anyone who posts regularly on a football website is usually a passionate fan. Many of us write from the perspective of what we think would be 'best' for our Leos and that brings with it a perspective of being an arm chair coach or GM. I see nothing wrong with that, although each one of us knows that none of us would be qualified for the job. It's fun to do so.

Lionbackers is a great football website because there are so many knowledgeable, conscientious, interested posters on this site. I get carried away sometimes with my enthusiasm and my passion and thoughts about strategy and coaching. But in the end, I'm just an over-opinionated die hard fan.

I'm going to start writing my annual 'Twas the Night Before Xmas' on Lionbackers and start getting in the holiday spirit. Whomever our next HC is going to be and whether Wally is going to hire his mother as HC or hire a top candidate outside, neither is worth bad feelings between fellow Lionbackers, is the way I''m looking at things.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9793
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

It's all fun until someone starts accusing someone or others of vicious attacks and impugning other posters' usual good intentions.

And of course it just takes one, two and then the entire pack descend on the guy.

As Derek Sivers point out, it just two to start a movement and now Joe's under the pack ....



Not that it hasn't happened to me including from those who are jumping on WCJ here (two at least). Enjoy how to start a movement.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Toppy Vann wrote:It's all fun until someone starts accusing someone or others of vicious attacks and impugning other posters' usual good intentions.

And of course it just takes one, two and then the entire pack descend on the guy.

As Derek Sivers point out, it just two to start a movement and now Joe's under the pack ....



Not that it hasn't happened to me including from those who are jumping on WCJ here (two at least). Enjoy how to start a movement.
Thanks, Toppy.

As anyone can see, I put in a lot of time and effort here, time I have, and enjoy, as a Moderator, creating threads, starting discussions, trying to build readership. If another member and I do not get along, and that happens, I do not comment on their posts, if it is possible to stay out of them. Or until a détente seems to have been achieved in the relationship.

I defended another member yesterday, as a Moderator, one of many here, and found myself under attack. More to come? Could be.

If someone else's post offends one, or if they strongly disagree with it, leave it alone. If one thinks someone has gone too far in criticizing Wally Buono or some other member of the Lions, bring it to the attention of a Moderator, and it can be discussed by two or three or more of them. Not sure who are Moderators? Most, if not all, have that MVP logo.

As noted numerous times, this site is one of relative peace and tranquility, especially in comparison to how it was, how I saw it, when I joined back in 2006. When things get nasty, participation goes way down. At such a time very few of the quiet members feel like posting.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9793
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:It's all fun until someone starts accusing someone or others of vicious attacks and impugning other posters' usual good intentions.

And of course it just takes one, two and then the entire pack descend on the guy.

As Derek Sivers point out, it just two to start a movement and now Joe's under the pack ....



Not that it hasn't happened to me including from those who are jumping on WCJ here (two at least). Enjoy how to start a movement.
Thanks, Toppy.

As anyone can see, I put in a lot of time and effort here, time I have, and enjoy, as a Moderator, creating threads, starting discussions, trying to build readership. If another member and I do not get along, and that happens, I do not comment on their posts, if it is possible to stay out of them. Or until a détente seems to have been achieved in the relationship.

I defended another member yesterday, as a Moderator, one of many here, and found myself under attack. More to come? Could be.

If someone else's post offends one, or if they strongly disagree with it, leave it alone. If one thinks someone has gone too far in criticizing Wally Buono or some other member of the Lions, bring it to the attention of a Moderator, and it can be discussed by two or three or more of them.

As noted numerous times, this site is one of relative peace and tranquility, especially in comparison to how it was, how I saw it, when I joined back in 2006. When things get nasty, participation goes way down.
:thup: :thup:

In the creation of a movement like in a hockey fight that leads to a brawl...it's always the second one entering the fray who creates the crowd all piling on.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
Post Reply