Esks crush the Lions 37-3 -- Post Mortems and Stats

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LionsLip
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Sir Purrcival wrote:
pennw wrote:
LionsLip wrote:They are not consistent enough on offence and take way too many penalties. Their defence cannot bail them out all the time as was more than evident tonight. What a hopeless feeling! :thdn:
The defense can't bail them out all the time ? Are you implying the defense played even okay in this one ? Not IMO did the defense do anything but play like garbage . They held like a wet paper bag with the Esks runing at will on them all game long . This has long been a BC weakness going back through the Stubler years too , all pass oriented defense that sacrifices the run defense .
1 first down in the 1st half. Did the D play great, not really but when your O manages a grand total of about 60 yards in an entire half, not even the Great Wall of China would be able to counter that. The D was responsible for our sole Offensive production on the night and part way through the 3rd it was pretty apparent that the D had resigned themselves to their fate. I won't forget the Esks in this either. They played a stellar game where pretty much everything they tried worked. Sometimes the game goes like that. If it was a one off, nobody would probably be complaining too much but this season has seen the O do the 2 and out dance so much that is should be a teen craze by now. When you produce offensively, it gives the opponent that much less time to be successful. The way our O played it might have been more effective to run 2 kneel downs and then punt. The D wasn't the problem yesterday or for that matter through most of the season. It lands squarely on the shoulders of the Offense.
Thanks for that Sir!, and pennw I was not implying that they played O.K. The defence can't be expected to consistently stop the opposing offence when they are out on the field most of the time, due to our offensive woes. How's that!
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aklawitter
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MexicoLionFan
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ziggy wrote:
MexicoLionFan wrote:Ziggy, you can't say that we have a talent issue at QB...we started the season with Lulay and Glenn at QB...that's a CFL coaches dream tandem, with NFL vet John Beck backing them up. Sorry, but that was the best QB situation in the league and a LOT BETTER than CGY's UNdynamic duo.

The reality is, this coaching staff has allowed all three of our QBs to consistently be steamrolled game in and game out...Andrew Harris was having a big season, because he was doing impossible things to get yards, on almost every play Harris was pushing himself to the limit to make plays without much help. He was injured doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING!

Blitz, I have quit being critical of the Offence because it is beyond a joke and not worth saying the same things over and over and over again. I wanted CHAP gone because he was stubbornly trying to run a system that didn't work with our Ass't Coaches and personnel, and that for CHAPS to change it took a gun to the head. I was tired of that. CHAPS is a very smart guy and innovative Offensive mind, light years ahead of Jones, but either Chaps needed to stay with bigger packages and commitment to the run or he needed to demand a new OL coach...he did NEITHER.
Well MLF I think I can say we lack talent at QB. Travis has been injured and has not played significant minutes this year, doubt that's a coaches dream. Glenn is a backup at best ,who lacks mobility, accuracy and maybe even desire, once again not a coaches dream. Beck is a 33 year old NFL journeyman learning the CFL game. I'd say we currently are very weak at QB! Don't let disdain for the coaching blind you to the obvious other issues.
Glenn was good enough to lead CGY to the best record last season and to the WF...he is a sure fire HOF QB and has thrown for more yards than almost every QB in CFL history. So what gives? One off season and Glenn was done? He has some near purrfect games at QB this season as well...so how do you explain it? The Lions had the most experience at QB (a position you can play into your 40's) than any other team going into the season and we allowed our QBs to be beaten to a pulp AGAIN...with Glenn looking for rocks to hide under he was so badly beaten.

As for Benny's comments calling the Esks clowns is UNBELIEVABLE. If I were the GM he would be in my office this morning...that's bulletin board material against a team that doesn't need any help with us. BRUTAL! He is simply not ready to be a Coordinator, let alone a HC.

As for JH and SP, both are very smart football guys, BUT are you trying to say that suddenly EDMs talent has soared ahead of ours? Clearly talent is not an issue with the Lions, coaching is...EDMs 5 year problem with not "good enough" talent is suddenly no longer an issue because they have coaching! It makes a HUGE difference. Adarius Bowman has not put up numbers like Ernest Jackson over the last month, however, Bowman had a 100 yard game and EJ didn't make a single catch? Talent? Don't bet on it...its coaching.

And for those again defending Washington's defence, he CAN'T take away Bowman or any singular player because of the style of Defence he runs...EDM can do it because THEY PRESSURE THE QB forcing QBs to miss wide open receivers because they can't see and don't have time. We give QBs all day to throw. If we doubled Bowman, Reilly would simply have time to find the open guys. Their coordinators would adjust to no safety presence down the middle and EDM's other receivers would start running deep posts to make us pay. WE DON'T MAKE OTHER TEAMS PAY! This should be on Benny's epitaph...football is an aggressive game played by warriors, let them do what they do best...ATTACK!
"Condemnation Without Investigation is the height of ignorance."

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Blitz
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During the Als - Argos game today Dunigan said, regarding the Als mercurial rise in the Eastern standings from the ashes, "the Als have the talent, they just didn't have the system." The same could probably be said of the Lions - they just don't have the system, forlornly evident on the offensive side of the ball through the season. (ballhawk)
In reflecting on your comments ballhawk and also penw's comments re: system/coaching vs. player execution I really believe our offensive woes this season are primarily a system/coaching issue but obviously talent/execution is always a part of inadequate play. But when I look at player responsibility I don't see it as the major problem. Yes, Kevin Glenn's lack of height and lack of high mobility, along with his penchant for throwing inside are restrictive. Andrew Harris was having an excellent season and Antolin has been solid in his place. At reciever, Taylor, Arsenault, and Jackson have all played well. Gore has dropped passes and Poblah/Iannuzzi have not impressed. On the offensive line we've had a high level of blocking from Ramsey, Olofoye, and Hardrick. Norman and Valli have been average.

We tend to look at the quarterback position as needing to be a savior and we also tend to expect the quarterback on our B.C. Lions to overcome some very difficult circumstances.

While I believe that, this season, the offensive system is the major culprit, there is also a SYSTEMIC problem with our B.C. Lions and that is our offensive line coaching and systems (I say systems because we've had so many offensive line systems under Dan '"the Mad Professor" Dorazio.

I really beleive Dorazio's nickname should be changed to Dan "The Destroyer" Dorazio and he should become a defensive line coach because he loves to destroy quarterbacks. The only problem is that the quarterbacks he destroys are our own.

Dave Dickenson joined us in 2003 and he never came close to even playing 50% of the time with us because he was so injured. He was released at the end of 2007, with major concussion issues but long before that he had given up golf because he was too bashed. We gave up 65 sacks in 2006 and 56 in 2006, our Grey Cup winning year, both league highs.

Mixed in to those seasons was Casey Printers, who with only 4 pro reps with our Lions in 2003, he entered the first 3 games of 2004, with Dickenson unable to continue each game and then started every regular game that season and the WDF. He was hurt in that WDF. In 2005, Printers began the season injured and played the final regular six games of the season with a rotator cuff injury in which he practiced throwing underhand (as well as pre-game). In 2007, Jarious Jackson became our starter because both Dickenson and Pierce were lost for the regular season.

Buck Pierce became our starter in 2008. His list of injuries could take up a whole page of Lionbackers. Jarious Jackson was often our starting quarterback but he also was injured. In 2009, Casey Printers was signed as a fourth quarterback, part way through the season and ended up becoming our starter in 2009 because all three of our quarterbacks were injured. Printers became the starter in 2010 but soon injured his knee. We played him on that knee and even though he was cut from the team due to the incident in Winnipeg (where Lulay was injured) the reality was that he could not have returned in 2011 anyway because he needed knee reconstruction surgery. Travis Lulay became our starter part way through 2010. Both Lulay and Printers both took a beating that year as we gave up the most sacks in the CFL again (65) even with the very mobile Lulay at quarterback.

In 2011, Chap changed our offensive system to work around Dorazio's lack of pass protection. That system change, along with Lulay's mobility (but that mobility had not been able to overcome our league leading sack total in 2010) we went from 65 sacks to 29 in 2011, lowest in the CFL and we only gave up 30 sacks in 2012, tied for the lowest in the CFL. Those low sack totals were a big reason why we won the Grey Cup in 2011 and had such an excellent regular season in 2012. It also allowed us to play our starting quarterback relatively injury free for 2 seasons..something that had never happened before in the Buono/Dorazio era.

But by 2013, defenses were getting better at scouting and defending Chap's new system. Our sack totals in 2013 went up to 47 sacks and Lulay was injured...a common theme for B.C. Lions quarterbacks during the Buono/Dorazio era which happens to coincide with the fact that during our tenure with Dorazio as our offensive line coach, we've given up the most sacks in the CFL, even counting those two good seasons in 2011 and 2012.

Lulay is now heading towards Dickenson territory in terms of games misse due to injury and now falls into the ranks of Printers, Pierce and Jackson in terms of now being another injured B.C. Lion quarterback.

Now its 2014 and Kevin Glenn is our quarterback. He's managed to avoid serious injury but he's been bashed up, mauled and pressured as well as played with injury. We've given up 45 sacks so far this season but that stat only tells part of the tale because, going with the expense of 3 Internationals on the offensive line and Khari Jones at least making some adjustments by going with Lumbala in the lineup and a tight end a lot more to block recently, our sack totals have been decent over the past few games but early in the season we were giving up the most sacks in the league, even with the quick release Glenn playing quarterback and the hits, pressures, sacks, etc. took their mental as well as physcial toll on Glenn.

The reality is that, except for a two year stretch in 2011 and 2012, we've never had consistency at the quarterback position from Dickenson to Lulay and all the quarterbacks in between because they have always been injured. If Henry Burris, Ricky Ray, or Anthony Cavillo played here, they likely never would have experienced their long careers at the position.

The offensive line coaching problem is systemic. The problem with Khari Jones is that he has not made enough adjustments to deal with it. The problem with Glenn is that he is not only mentally and physically worn down but he also does not have the mobility to run for his life behind it and he has become a bit jumpy because of it. It happened to Lulay last season. When you become so accustomed to not having any time to throw, your're shocked when you do. It also doesn't Glenn, when the passing game is so bland, predictable and easy to defend.

What to do? The source problem is Dorazio. The scheme problem is secondary but needs serious change. Glenn is not a huge problem even though he has limitations in his athletic ability. He won a lot of games in Calgary. But he needs decent line blocking and a decent scheme to succeed. I highly doubt that Lulay would have had an excellent season if he was healthy, with the pressure that our quarterback faced for most of this season and that was shown when Lulay did get his quarterback action this year.

We tend to want the quick fix. Throw in the backup quarterback or put Lulay in the playoff game. But for longer term results, we have to go to the source of the problem to truly address it. The offensive line coaching is the problem. For a couple of seasons Chap created a scheme that effectively worked around it. Khari Jones has not done that to the degree that Chap did. Whether he can in the future is unknown. He's made some changes, by going with Lumbala and a tight end more to attempt to adrdress it but its not enough and the 3 Internationals have helped but that is not enough.

The reality is that Khari Jones has to scheme change much more than he has to overcome Dorazio. Glenn nor Lulay nor Beck nor any of the players overcome the problem all on their own.

But if we truly want to get our offence fixed next season, it all begins with offensive line coaching or lack thereof, then scheme, then quarterback in that order.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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The_Pauser
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I'm not going to act like coaching hasn't been an issue, because I think it has. But I completely disagree with absolving the talent of and blame and shifting all the blame to coaching. Just because a player has a good game or two in a season doesn't mean that all the talent is there and thus any poor performances for the rest of the season are all on coaching. No, we haven't been good enough at the QB position. All you need to do is analyze Glenn's picks and he's thrown some balls and made some bad decisions that you would expect out of rookies, not veterans. Is that on coaching too?
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TheLionKing
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MexicoLionFan wrote: And for those again defending Washington's defence, he CAN'T take away Bowman or any singular player because of the style of Defence he runs...EDM can do it because THEY PRESSURE THE QB forcing QBs to miss wide open receivers because they can't see and don't have time. We give QBs all day to throw. If we doubled Bowman, Reilly would simply have time to find the open guys. Their coordinators would adjust to no safety presence down the middle and EDM's other receivers would start running deep posts to make us pay. WE DON'T MAKE OTHER TEAMS PAY! This should be on Benny's epitaph...football is an aggressive game played by warriors, let them do what they do best...ATTACK!
Agree. Anyone remember that Benevides promised an attacking style of defence ?
Blitz
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The_Pauser wrote:I'm not going to act like coaching hasn't been an issue, because I think it has. But I completely disagree with absolving the talent of and blame and shifting all the blame to coaching. Just because a player has a good game or two in a season doesn't mean that all the talent is there and thus any poor performances for the rest of the season are all on coaching. No, we haven't been good enough at the QB position. All you need to do is analyze Glenn's picks and he's thrown some balls and made some bad decisions that you would expect out of rookies, not veterans. Is that on coaching too?
All quarterbacks make bad decisions and throw interceptions at times. Glenn has thrown 15 interceptions this season, the same exact number as Ricky Ray, who has played less games and had much better protection. Ray is a veteran too. Glenn's interception rate is the same as Lulay's last season. And yes, its on coaching. When you consistently don't give a quarterback the time to throw and you don't give him quickly desigined pass plays or anti-blitz options to negatge pressure or blitzes that's on coaching.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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SammyGreene
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I have been stewing the last couple of days since Saturday’s debacle. As I suggested last week in another thread, I believe this is a critical month for the franchise to be front and centre in the Vancouver sports scene, leading up to the Grey Cup.
Instead of a potential big win we get an absolutely putrid performance. Even Suitor and Cuthbert were expressing their disappointment in what they thought would be a playoff type game.
How on earth can Wally and Skulsky, with his regular view on the sidelines, sit back and watch this current product sour the fan base who will make their statement with their wallets.

No way am I rushing to renew right now and endorse what I have seen most of the season. It’s going to take significant changes to the coaching staff to get me back on board. The early renewal “savings” mean nothing given I’m paying for a pre-season game and even to watch Ottawa too.

Blitz has hit the nail on the head with so many points. You only have to look at how poor this team has looked offensively coming off bye weeks. First the dismal display in Ottawa with Lulay back at QB then a good chunk of the game against a struggling Bombers team.

Chapdelaine would use the bye week to add new wrinkles to the offence, or even an entire makeover like he did with the extra week off in 2011. The Lions typically came out sharp and ready to play. How did the Eskimos look Saturday coming off a bye week?
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JohnHenry
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cromartie wrote:
JohnHenry wrote:Many pundits here were calling for John Beck to start the game after last week's performance, but he didn't look so hot either. Was that the coaches fault? But he had the same coaches last week? There must be more to this than just coaching... :violin:
Ladies and Gentleman, the last holdout of "the game plan was fine, the players just didn't execute." :tp:
I agree, the main problem was execution. The Lion players were mainly spectators in the 2nd half, having thrown in the towel vs. Esks. If the players don't have the inner motivation to defeat their opponent, would a screaming coach imploring them to make their blocks and try harder, have helped? I don't absolve the coaches, but its up to the players on the field to get the job done. The coaches seem to have gotten SolE motivated, why can't more Lion players show the same desire?

No team is going to maintain their intensity through an 18-game season. There will be ebbs and flows. The Esk game was an ebb, so let's throw that game-film in the barf bag and move on. The Lions could come out like world-beaters next week, then all is well again.

I do believe the coaching could improve. I called for Chaps release in the off-season but did say the Lions would be unlikely to find a better OC or even one as good. It was just time for an offensive change. 2 or 3 games ago I suggested K. Jones should fired with perhaps 14-yr veteran K. Glenn calling his own plays. Another option would be to elevate Lulay to "acting OC", since he's standing on the sidelines anyways. I believe Travis could do equally well as R. Dinwittie has as a rookie OC. ST have also been abysmal over the past few seasons...way, way too many penalties with the blocking not good enough. Yes, it's time for a change on ST.

But just getting rid of coaches without having a qualified replacement is probably a 50/50 proposition at best. For every M. Trestman there's a few Dan Hawkins to go through. Sometimes the devil you know is better than gambling on somebody "different". I believe when push comes to shove, the Lions will show up and win for Bene. For all we know maybe they're shooting for the cross-over? (anything to avoid the WSF in Eskimo-land. :wink: )
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Lions4ever
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TheLionKing wrote:
leo4life wrote:Any one catch the 1410 post game interview? A emotional Benny said "Next time we meet those clowns we will be ready" (Eskimos) LOL.Ok Benny you got taken to school by a rookie HC twice this season.They say the third time is the charm,well it will be your going away party along with a few others hopefully.
Calling the Eskimoes clowns after the way they outcoached, outscheme, outplayed your team ? Better look yourself in the mirror Benny
Did he really say that?

He should be fired on the spot.
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Rammer
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Lions4ever wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:
leo4life wrote:Any one catch the 1410 post game interview? A emotional Benny said "Next time we meet those clowns we will be ready" (Eskimos) LOL.Ok Benny you got taken to school by a rookie HC twice this season.They say the third time is the charm,well it will be your going away party along with a few others hopefully.
Calling the Eskimoes clowns after the way they outcoached, outscheme, outplayed your team ? Better look yourself in the mirror Benny
Did he really say that?

He should be fired on the spot.
Just another nail in the coffin, too bad that it didn't have more dovetail work in it, just all nails.
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TheLionKing
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JohnHenry wrote:I agree, the main problem was execution. The Lion players were mainly spectators in the 2nd half, having thrown in the towel vs. Esks. If the players don't have the inner motivation to defeat their opponent, would a screaming coach imploring them to make their blocks and try harder, have helped? I don't absolve the coaches, but its up to the players on the field to get the job done. The coaches seem to have gotten SolE motivated, why can't more Lion players show the same desire?
Perhaps SolE was motivated DESPITE the coaches
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WestCoastJoe
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http://www.theprovince.com/sports/footb ... story.html

From Lowell Ullrich ...
But they didn’t, and the offence under Khari Jones, who has clearly been underwhelming in his first season with the Lions as offensive co-ordinator, had few other answers.
With only a game Friday against the Calgary Stampeders to close out the regular season, the Lions have produced 364 points, the fewest since 1998, when Jones and Damon Allen quarterbacked the Lions to a 9-9 record.
Edmonton will be more than happy to play either B.C. or Saskatchewan in the first round of the playoffs, having beaten both teams by a combined score of 61-3 in the last two games against its possible playoffs-opening opponent.
Credit to Chris Jones. He came into his HC position after a long, long apprenticeship as a very successful DC.
Two Lions coaches were asked at the team hotel Saturday by a fan about a broadcast report that suggested the club would benefit by purposely losing and taking their playoff road show to the East Division, a preposterous idea in the extreme given the financial implications of hosting a playoff game.

Hours later, the Lions went into the tank in a big way. They weren’t playing possum, either.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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WestCoastJoe
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http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/foot ... story.html

From Mike Beamish ...
What makes Elimimian such a mesmerizing player is his relentless consistency, his steely will and the simplicity of his passion.

But, collectively, the Lions were a team devoid of passion Saturday -- on the playing field and, curiously, afterward in the locker room.

Head coach Mike Benevides, who normally wears his heart on his sleeve, was as subdued as his players following the train wreck. The Lions were spectacular in one dimension: They all appeared stunned.

“For the most part, they’ve (his team) always played with a tremendous amount of intensity and response,” Benevides said. “Today, we didn’t get that.”
Top athletes motivate themselves, it seems to me. Motivating a football team is an entirely different matter.
“I’d like to believe I put a little pop on him (Elimimian), as he did on me,” Reilly said. “But I certainly felt it. He’s a great player, and you’ve always got to be aware of where he’s at. He’s put his fair share of licks on me. He’s not a guy you want to go head-to-head with, though. Whenever possible, you try to avoid him.

“He’s got one more game to play, and perhaps he’ll put that record out of reach.”
One team came to play for second place in the West Division; the other acted as if it didn’t matter. In this one-sided affair, the numbers truly were shocking. The Esks had 30 first downs to B.C.‘s seven. Total yards: Eskimos 559, Lions 161. Mike Reilly’s stat line: 289 yards passing, 54 yards rushing, two rushing TDs. Kevin Glenn’s stat line: 68 yards passing, 12 yards rushing. John Beck: one completion in seven attempts for 27 yards. The Eskimos were penalized three times for 25 yards; the Lions 13 times for 90 yards. If Esks’ RB John White (17 rushes, 122 yards) hadn’t fumbled on his own accord at B.C.‘s 10-yard line, the scoreline could have been worse for the unengaged visitors.
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Eski ... z3I2mCq9Dj





Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Eski ... z3I2lCAZ5v
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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aklawitter
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What Could Have Been

Benny gets hired as HC for a then (and maybe still) dysfunctional Toronto team
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