Bombers and Coach O'Shea

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Blue In BC
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cromartie wrote:
Blue In BC wrote:. We've been let down even more by our ST coaches.
As always, the first question I ask when I see this is, is it really a function of coaching, or is it first and foremost a product of a lack of talent/depth due to poor player personnel acquisitions?
ST problems are a combination of both I agree. However, the mental aspect / understanding of the game is a coachable situation.

Example from the last game: Woods took a kickoff which was angling towards the sideline and his momentum ran him our of bounds about the 10 yard line. It appeared the ball would go out on it's own either in the endzone or near the 10 yardline.

The last thing a struggling offense needs is to start the deep in their zone going into the wind against an excellent defense.

The Bombers have done this several times this year where they have chosen to " run out " of the endzone or field a punt or kickoff going out of bounds.
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Bosco
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Today's game could get ugly, early. With questions at QB and RB (among other positions) the Bombers do not look like a team that will be ready to compete against the strong (and rested) Stamps.
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WestCoastJoe
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O'Shea certainly looked good out of the gate. Not so much now. His credentials are somewhat limited. Never been a DC. Just STs. If he fails, it also calls into question the judgment of Kyle Walters, and ultimately that of Wade Miller.

O'Shea has a steep learning curve. For the good of the Bombers' organization, and for the good of the CFL, I hope this is a temporary road bump on the way to stability for the Bombers.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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Toppy Vann
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Marve.. moves pocket left and makes a hard pass, then runs right as there was nothing. Then a hand off up the middle for a long TD run.

I have been very critical of the Bombers play book given their failures to be able to block and have looked for getting that pocket moved BUT this movement was breakdowns and this rookie's skill set - not the play book.

Scheme is killing Bombers but there is life now.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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notahomer
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Well looks like the Lions Coaches will have some extra work to get ready for now. The latest guy to take snaps for the Bombers (Marve/) looked okay out there. At the same time, seemed a little excited at times too. Probably just thrilled to get in. ANyway between the sudden change in a working run game and the tools the QB brought, the Stamps seemed to stumble for a quarter or so. Smartened up and layed the Cornish on them to end the game.

Stubler looked STEAMED at his defence. Sure don't want to be sitting in one of his meetings this week.....
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MexicoLionFan
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O'Shea is a great coach and has done an excellent job in WPG. They were purrfect out of the gate with a healthy roster...he has now had to deal with a TON of injuries plus unexpected drop off from proven vets...it has been a tough go for O'Shea, but he is limited by the talent in WPG. Next year, with another off season to add to what they are developing now, WPG will have much more depth to get through the injuries. Trust me, WPG is in VERY GOOD hands with O'Shea. Plus, Mike will hold his assistants accountable if he is not satisfied.

As TLK said, I wish we could trade for O'Shea.
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seamack3
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O'Shea is a class coach and good for the future of the Blue. Allowing Grigsby to be released as per his request was best for the team. They will overcome this in time... don't forget, Paris Cotton was the top RB out of training camp until injury. And who wants a locker room cancer and team quitter who blames the rest for his lack of production? I would take O'Shea anyday over Benny.
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274always
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O'Shea could win it all next year in the peg. But for now his team should be easy pickings this Saturday.

Lions still mathematically alive to finish second.
Grey Cup 103. Graduation day.
Blitz
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TheLionKing wrote:
DanoT wrote: It would be a big mistake for the Bombers to fire O'Shea. Who else is out there to replace him?
Can we make a trade much like the Canuck's Alain Vigneault going to the Rangers and Tortorella coming west ? :wink: Benevides for O'Shea and we'll throw in Chuck McMann and Dan Dorazio :wink:
Good trade TheLionKing!!!! :wink: You are totally GM material. However, before you get carried away with any other potential trades, remember that Kato has a no trade clause. :wink:
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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cromartie
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WestCoastJoe wrote:O'Shea certainly looked good out of the gate. Not so much now. His credentials are somewhat limited. Never been a DC. Just STs. If he fails, it also calls into question the judgment of Kyle Walters, and ultimately that of Wade Miller.

O'Shea has a steep learning curve. For the good of the Bombers' organization, and for the good of the CFL, I hope this is a temporary road bump on the way to stability for the Bombers.
I don't view "just ST" as limited coaching experience at all.

I was stuck in traffic one evening, well on my way to missing a flight out of Atlanta when I heard a great discussion on what makes ST coaches uniquely qualified for HC positions.

For the most part, DCs and OCs have a base set of dedicated personnel around which to game plan. They use that base set of personnel to develop schemes, they don't do significant substitutions (at least, not compared to ST), they have really only a limited number of base personnel circumstances around which to plan. (There is one set of core schemes from which variances are designed).

Special Teams coaches, on the other hand, have to pull personnel from different units, they have to make the best of the spare parts around them. They have exactly two dedicated players (one in Canada) the Punter and the Kicker. They are constantly herding cats, and get what's left over of both the bottom of the roster and those sets of players who aren't in other meetings. They also have Field Goal attempts, kickoffs, kickoff returns, punts, and punt returns around which to plan.

ST coordinators, because of the different nature of their job, should be better prepared to ascend to a Head Coaching position than a DC or an OC, because the nature of the work is more similar. DCs are dedicates to Defense. OCs are dedicated to offense. ST coordinators have to deal with a little bit of everything. It requires a different mindset, one more toward the disjointed nature of being a Head Coach.
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WestCoastJoe
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cromartie wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:O'Shea certainly looked good out of the gate. Not so much now. His credentials are somewhat limited. Never been a DC. Just STs. If he fails, it also calls into question the judgment of Kyle Walters, and ultimately that of Wade Miller.

O'Shea has a steep learning curve. For the good of the Bombers' organization, and for the good of the CFL, I hope this is a temporary road bump on the way to stability for the Bombers.
I don't view "just ST" as limited coaching experience at all.

I was stuck in traffic one evening, well on my way to missing a flight out of Atlanta when I heard a great discussion on what makes ST coaches uniquely qualified for HC positions.

For the most part, DCs and OCs have a base set of dedicated personnel around which to game plan. They use that base set of personnel to develop schemes, they don't do significant substitutions (at least, not compared to ST), they have really only a limited number of base personnel circumstances around which to plan. (There is one set of core schemes from which variances are designed).

Special Teams coaches, on the other hand, have to pull personnel from different units, they have to make the best of the spare parts around them. They have exactly two dedicated players (one in Canada) the Punter and the Kicker. They are constantly herding cats, and get what's left over of both the bottom of the roster and those sets of players who aren't in other meetings. They also have Field Goal attempts, kickoffs, kickoff returns, punts, and punt returns around which to plan.

ST coordinators, because of the different nature of their job, should be better prepared to ascend to a Head Coaching position than a DC or an OC, because the nature of the work is more similar. DCs are dedicates to Defense. OCs are dedicated to offense. ST coordinators have to deal with a little bit of everything. It requires a different mindset, one more toward the disjointed nature of being a Head Coach.
Points well made. Nevertheless it seems most new HCs arrive after significant time at OC or DC. If I was hiring, that is where I would tend to look.

Re STs. For sure there is opportunity for creativity aplenty. Trick plays. Timing. Scouting the opposition. And as I have noted on here somewhere, there is a very, very successful high school coach who has about 20 different kickoffs. They onside it every time with a very high success rate.

I saw Jeff Reinbold, when he was ST coach for the Lions, present his schemes on film. He was very creative and well organized. I don't recall any details, but I think his group performed well for us. As a HC, Hmmmmm ... not so much by way of success. I personally am glad for him that he is back in the CFL, STs and LBs for the TiCats. He is certainly not everyone's cup of tea.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
TheLionKing
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Blitz wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:
DanoT wrote: It would be a big mistake for the Bombers to fire O'Shea. Who else is out there to replace him?
Can we make a trade much like the Canuck's Alain Vigneault going to the Rangers and Tortorella coming west ? :wink: Benevides for O'Shea and we'll throw in Chuck McMann and Dan Dorazio :wink:
Good trade TheLionKing!!!! :wink: You are totally GM material. However, before you get carried away with any other potential trades, remember that Kato has a no trade clause. :wink:
I hear Kato is prepared to waive his no trade clause if I throw in "all you eat" sushi :wink:
ballhawk
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Like myself, I wonder if any posters on this website wondered what on earth Drew Willy was doing in the game against the Lions. Considering the pounding he had taken over the season, it was evident to me that he was not himself. Coach O'Shea never even appeared to consider having some mercy on his star QB and replacing him with Robert Marve. Honestly, you really have to wonder about O'Shea. Well, Doug Brown, the former Blue Bomber great agrees with me. I strongly urge Lionbackers to read Doug Brown's article in the Manitoba paper, The Carillon. Pretty much a scathing attack on the Bomber coaching staff. Oh, and get this, O'Shea is going to start Willy against Calgary - a meaningless game in terms of play-off hopes.

Note: This article is also in the Winnipeg Free Press.
"the 1996 season was a very difficult period... I couldn't imagine telling people that I was part of the last days of the CFL... it seemed that there would be no end to the continuous stream of catastrophic problems... it was like living in a toxic fishbowl... if they had known how serious the situation was, but we couldn't make it public, for fear of a total meltdown". (from Bigger Balls, The CFL and Overcoming the Canadian Inferiority Complex, by Jeff Giles)
Blitz
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ballhawk wrote:Like myself, I wonder if any posters on this website wondered what on earth Drew Willy was doing in the game against the Lions. Considering the pounding he had taken over the season, it was evident to me that he was not himself. Coach O'Shea never even appeared to consider having some mercy on his star QB and replacing him with Robert Marve. Honestly, you really have to wonder about O'Shea. Well, Doug Brown, the former Blue Bomber great agrees with me. I strongly urge Lionbackers to read Doug Brown's article in the Manitoba paper, The Carillon. Pretty much a scathing attack on the Bomber coaching staff. Oh, and get this, O'Shea is going to start Willy against Calgary - a meaningless game in terms of play-off hopes.

Note: This article is also in the Winnipeg Free Press.[/quote

Thanks ballhawk.

Here is an excerpt from the article. Looks like Willy was very beat up physicallly and mentally going into the Lions game, according to Brown.
He had a hurt thumb, a bad shoulder, a twisted ankle and surely countless other injuries that never leaked out of the training room. Damaged because he was sacked more this season than any other Bombers quarterback ever has been. He was also in the deep water of the final third of the season, a period where rookie CFL starters often fade dramatically because their bodies have never been exposed to the grind that accompanies an 18-game schedule.

Yet, even more impacting than the physical carnage, it has been evident Willy was also beat up mentally, as bad, if not worse, than from the pounding he took. The close losses, the blowout losses, the championship drought, the expectations of a 5-1 start, the changes and things defences took away from him once they had a catalogue of film on him, and of course, how his play, confidence and decisiveness regressed as he got pummeled in every conceivable fashion.

It wasn't just the game against Calgary -- where the offence came alive with two backup quarterbacks at the helm, or a QB with the ability to escape a never-ending pass rush and extend plays with his feet behind a porous offensive line -- that was the argument for change. It was always about a fresh mind and body relieving the starting pitcher in the late innings, a changeup reliever to catch teams unprepared and introduce new dimensions and attributes -- not unlike what the team achieved by replacing once dynamic and worthy rookie running back Nic Grigsby, with underutilized rookie Paris Cotton.

For some time now Willy has been shell-shocked and withdrawn on the field, not unlike the fallout of an abusive relationship. He had nothing left to learn or be taught by a football season where his last two starts were blowout losses and the team hadn't won in over two months. It's disappointing it took 10 more sacks and a chorus of boos from frustrated fans for this conclusion to become the near consensus on his playing status.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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DanoT
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The biggest question is why did the bombers stop running the ball in the 2nd half? If the QB is getting sacked then run the ball or use screen passes.

The big problem for the Bombers was that the Lions were getting pressure on the QB with only a 4 or 5 man rush. If Lions can do that and then put 7 -8 guys in pass protection, then no one will be open.

O'Shea might be a little too stubborn and not quick enough to adapt. Or am I describing Mike Benevides (minus the emotions)? :shock:
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