Fire Khari Jones

[David]

We seem to constantly require 3 downs to obtain 10 yards (John Beck is one of our most active ball carriers). When was the last time we threw for 10+ yards on first down. Anyone??

Bueller?
DH

To answer your specific question, it happened four times in the Hamilton game. Glenn threw for 34 yards to EJ on first down in the first quarter, Arceneaux threw a 17-yard TD pass to Gore on first down in the third quarter and Glenn threw back-to-back first-down passes of 16-yards to Haidara and 10 yards to Antolin late in the fourth quarter.

So if we take away the gadget play and drives late in the game when Hamilton was in 'protect' mode to prevent a long completion, Glenn found Jackson behind coverage exactly....once.

I am interested in the 2nd down conversion stat. Is that 'among the league leaders in 2nd down conversion (as a percentage)' or 'among the league leaders in 2nd down conversion (in terms of number of conversions)'? If it's the latter, it's likely more a function of our methodical dink and dunk offensive style.


DH

[B.C.FAN]

I am interested in the 2nd down conversion stat. Is that 'among the league leaders in 2nd down conversion (as a percentage)' or 'among the league leaders in 2nd down conversion (in terms of number of conversions)'? If it's the latter, it's likely more a function of our methodical dink and dunk offensive style.


DH

It's both. Until last week the Lions ranked first in second-down conversions at 136 and conversion percentage at 44.1. After the Hamilton game, the Lions rank second in conversions at 144 (one behind Edmonton) and fourth in percentage at 43.8, just one-tenth of a point behind Calgary, Edmonton and Toronto, all at 43.9.

[sj-roc]

We seem to constantly require 3 downs to obtain 10 yards (John Beck is one of our most active ball carriers). When was the last time we threw for 10+ yards on first down. Anyone??

Bueller?
DH

To answer your specific question, it happened four times in the Hamilton game. Glenn threw for 34 yards to EJ on first down in the first quarter, Arceneaux threw a 17-yard TD pass to Gore on first down in the third quarter and Glenn threw back-to-back first-down passes of 16-yards to Haidara and 10 yards to Antolin late in the fourth quarter.

So if we take away the gadget play and drives late in the game when Hamilton was in 'protect' mode to prevent a long completion, Glenn found Jackson behind coverage exactly....once.

I am interested in the 2nd down conversion stat. Is that 'among the league leaders in 2nd down conversion (as a percentage)' or 'among the league leaders in 2nd down conversion (in terms of number of conversions)'? If it's the latter, it's likely more a function of our methodical dink and dunk offensive style.


DH

For what it's worth, we lead the league in number of punts plus turnovers on downs plus safeties allowed, although in fairness the entire west has one more game played than the entire east — but this still leaves us worst in our division:

BC: 130 (118+6+6) (punts + TODs + safeties)
Ssk: 124 (116+4+4)
Mtl: 123 (109+11+3)
Edm: 119 (114+5+0)
Ott: 118 (104+13+1)
Ham: 115 (106+4+5)
Wpg: 111 (100+6+5)
Cgy: 106 (103+2+1)
Tor: 100 (97+3+0)

[Blitz]

Here is a question for you B.C. Fan...and I'm very interested in your answer. I have a theory about the question I'm asking but I know you're very intelligent in looking at offence so want to defer to you.

You have noted that we run the football more than any other CFL team on first down and we have a 5.1 yard rush average, giving us a lot of second and less than five yards to go. You have also pointed out that we are 3rd in the CFL in converting second downs. So we have a lot of second and short yardage situations and we are well above average in the CFL in converting second down situations into another first down attempt. So here is the question based on the two stats you've emphazed. Why have we punted the football the most times in the CFL and why are we 6th in CFL scoring?

I also looked at our offensive turnover ratio, the area you most focus on, assuming that might me a factor. And yet our offence is 4th in the CFL in giveawys, only behind Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan.

So, in summary, we have a lot of second and short yardage situations according to your stat, we are very good at second down conversions, our giveaway ratio is not the big problem and yet we punt the football the most in the CFL (a most telling stat) and we are a bottom tier team in terms of scoring.

What do you think the reason for our offensive ineptitude is?

[Rammer]

Here is a question for you B.C. Fan...and I'm very interested in your answer. I have a theory about the question I'm asking but I know you're very intelligent in looking at offence so want to defer to you.

You have noted that we run the football more than any other CFL team on first down and we have a 5.1 yard rush average, giving us a lot of second and less than five yards to go. You have also pointed out that we are 3rd in the CFL in converting second downs. So we have a lot of second and short yardage situations and we are well above average in the CFL in converting second down situations into another first down attempt. So here is the question based on the two stats you've emphazed. Why have we punted the football the most times in the CFL and why are we 6th in CFL scoring?

I also looked at our offensive turnover ratio, the area you most focus on, assuming that might me a factor. And yet our offence is 4th in the CFL in giveawys, only behind Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan.

So, in summary, we have a lot of second and short yardage situations according to your stat, we are very good at second down conversions, our giveaway ratio is not the big problem and yet we punt the football the most in the CFL (a most telling stat) and we are a bottom tier team in terms of scoring.

What do you think the reason for our offensive ineptitude is?

The damn offense can't execute. We draw up the simple plays, then it breaks down when one player misses his assignment, you can see it in the game film, but sometimes it is two guys not able to execute. You would think that the other team was trying to disrupt our plays or something.

Signed, Benevides

[Blitz]

Here is a question for you B.C. Fan...and I'm very interested in your answer. I have a theory about the question I'm asking but I know you're very intelligent in looking at offence so want to defer to you.

You have noted that we run the football more than any other CFL team on first down and we have a 5.1 yard rush average, giving us a lot of second and less than five yards to go. You have also pointed out that we are 3rd in the CFL in converting second downs. So we have a lot of second and short yardage situations and we are well above average in the CFL in converting second down situations into another first down attempt. So here is the question based on the two stats you've emphazed. Why have we punted the football the most times in the CFL and why are we 6th in CFL scoring?

I also looked at our offensive turnover ratio, the area you most focus on, assuming that might me a factor. And yet our offence is 4th in the CFL in giveawys, only behind Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan.

So, in summary, we have a lot of second and short yardage situations according to your stat, we are very good at second down conversions, our giveaway ratio is not the big problem and yet we punt the football the most in the CFL (a most telling stat) and we are a bottom tier team in terms of scoring.

What do you think the reason for our offensive ineptitude is?

The damn offense can't execute. We draw up the simple plays, then it breaks down when one player misses his assignment, you can see it in the game film, but sometimes it is two guys not able to execute. You would think that the other team was trying to disrupt our plays or something.

Signed, Benevides

Rammer

Uuuuugh......how come the Calgary Stampeders have don't seem to have the same execution problems and on game film there are not one or two players missing assignments on each and every play. Is the water that much better in Calgary that players seem to not miss their assigments as often there...

And how come their receivers run their pattern for 5 yards when they need five yards and don't run them for four yards like our recievers supposedly do (they somehow can teach that early enough in the season wheras now at this late date...we are putting markers on the practice field) oooooh and how come when its 3rd down and less than one yard, Calgary sneaks the football and we punt.

Chalk it all up to an INJURY PLAGUED SEASON, rather than a season that was not injury plagued until recently. If the writers were accurate they would call it a INJURY PLAGUED LATTER PART OF THE SEASON, but that might not please Wally.

[B.C.FAN]

Here is a question for you B.C. Fan...and I'm very interested in your answer. I have a theory about the question I'm asking but I know you're very intelligent in looking at offence so want to defer to you.

You have noted that we run the football more than any other CFL team on first down and we have a 5.1 yard rush average, giving us a lot of second and less than five yards to go. You have also pointed out that we are 3rd in the CFL in converting second downs. So we have a lot of second and short yardage situations and we are well above average in the CFL in converting second down situations into another first down attempt. So here is the question based on the two stats you've emphazed. Why have we punted the football the most times in the CFL and why are we 6th in CFL scoring?

I also looked at our offensive turnover ratio, the area you most focus on, assuming that might me a factor. And yet our offence is 4th in the CFL in giveawys, only behind Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan.

So, in summary, we have a lot of second and short yardage situations according to your stat, we are very good at second down conversions, our giveaway ratio is not the big problem and yet we punt the football the most in the CFL (a most telling stat) and we are a bottom tier team in terms of scoring.

What do you think the reason for our offensive ineptitude is?

Like a lot of things in football, there is no single answer. I'll list three, in no particular order, and explain in more detail.

1. Field position
2. Lack of execution
3. Lack of big plays

The Lions have the second most second-down conversions and don't have a lot of 2-and-outs but also have the most punts and are seventh in scoring. This apparent inconguity in the stats can be explained by the fact the Lions have had the second highest number of possessions (214, one behind Edmonton) but only 22 of those possessions have started in the opponent's end of the field. As noted earlier in the thread, only Ottawa has had fewer drives starting in the opponent's end.

The B.C. offfence ranks third in number of plays and fifth in net yardage (Hamilton passed us last week, in more ways than one) but is not often able to sustain long drives. The Lions have to drive farther to get in scoring position but their offence is geared to the rushing and short passing game, featuring layered crossing routes that have been the bread-and-butter of the B.C. offence for many years. With defences often dropping eight or nine men into coverage, the QB checks down to his RB or underneath crosser and counts on them to get just enough yards for a first down. It's a high percentage offence but if someone misses a block, drops a pass or runs a route a yard short of the first-down marker, the drive stalls. Other than Arceneaux, the Lions do not have a quick-strike receiver who can make big plays. The Lions are eighth in offensive big plays (rushes of 20+ yards or passes of 30+ yards).

Beyond the stats, I think several factors are at the root of the problem. The offensive line has not opened holes consistently for the running game, especially on first down. Second down is almost always a passing down for the Lions, and that creates pressure to execute flawlessly. Whether by design or poor route running or poor QB reads, the Lions have not been able to involve the wide receivers in the passing game. That makes it easier for defences to clog the middle and defend the short curls and crossers to the slots. When most of your offence comes from your running back and two international slots (all of whom are injured, by the way), it's easier for defences to key on those positions. Moving the ball downfield five yards at a time requires flawless execution. Is it all on coaching, lack of talent or poor execution through lack of mental sharpness? It's probably on all three areas. Pick your scapegoat.

[Blitz]

Here is a question for you B.C. Fan...and I'm very interested in your answer. I have a theory about the question I'm asking but I know you're very intelligent in looking at offence so want to defer to you.

You have noted that we run the football more than any other CFL team on first down and we have a 5.1 yard rush average, giving us a lot of second and less than five yards to go. You have also pointed out that we are 3rd in the CFL in converting second downs. So we have a lot of second and short yardage situations and we are well above average in the CFL in converting second down situations into another first down attempt. So here is the question based on the two stats you've emphazed. Why have we punted the football the most times in the CFL and why are we 6th in CFL scoring?

I also looked at our offensive turnover ratio, the area you most focus on, assuming that might me a factor. And yet our offence is 4th in the CFL in giveawys, only behind Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatchewan.

So, in summary, we have a lot of second and short yardage situations according to your stat, we are very good at second down conversions, our giveaway ratio is not the big problem and yet we punt the football the most in the CFL (a most telling stat) and we are a bottom tier team in terms of scoring.

What do you think the reason for our offensive ineptitude is?

Like a lot of things in football, there is no single answer. I'll list three, in no particular order, and explain in more detail.

1. Field position
2. Lack of execution
3. Lack of big plays

The Lions have the second most second-down conversions and don't have a lot of 2-and-outs but also have the most punts and are seventh in scoring. This apparent inconguity in the stats can be explained by the fact the Lions have had the second highest number of possessions (214, one behind Edmonton) but only 22 of those possessions have started in the opponent's end of the field. As noted earlier in the thread, only Ottawa has had fewer drives starting in the opponent's end.

The B.C. offfence ranks third in number of plays and fifth in net yardage (Hamilton passed us last week, in more ways than one) but is not often able to sustain long drives. The Lions have to drive farther to get in scoring position but their offence is geared to the rushing and short passing game, featuring layered crossing routes that have been the bread-and-butter of the B.C. offence for many years. With defences often dropping eight or nine men into coverage, the QB checks down to his RB or underneath crosser and counts on them to get just enough yards for a first down. It's a high percentage offence but if someone misses a block, drops a pass or runs a route a yard short of the first-down marker, the drive stalls. Other than Arceneaux, the Lions do not have a quick-strike receiver who can make big plays. The Lions are eight in offensive big plays (rushes of 20+ yards or passes of 30+ yards).

Beyond the stats, I think several factors are at the root of the problem. The offensive line has not opened holes consistently for the running game, especially on first down. Second down is almost always a passing down for the Lions, and that creates pressure to execute flawlessly. Whether by design or poor route running or poor QB reads, the Lions have not been able to involve the wide receivers in the passing game. That makes it easier for defences to clog the middle and defend the short curls and crossers to the slots. When most of your offence comes from your running back and two international slots (all of whom are injured, by the way), it's easier for defences to key on those positions. Moving the ball downfield five yards at a time requires flawless execution. Is it all on coaching, lack of talent or poor execution through lack of mental sharpness? It's probably on all three areas. Pick your scapegoat.

I'm impressed and not surprised B.C. Fan. Thanks for a great analazing our issues so well. I especially concur, that even though we've averaged 5.1 yards per carry rushing and we run the football about 50% on first down, that rushing average comes from some big games and some big gains but there have been too many games in which we get one or two yards rushing on first down.

One thing that you did not mention, that I will add is quarterback sacks. We've had too many and they are drive killers as well as demoralizing. There were times in the past when we could give up the most sacks in the CFL (we've given up the most quarterback sacks of any CFL team over the past 10 seasons) that we could recover. For example we gave up the most sacks in the CFL in 2005 ( mind numbing 65 sacks) and won the West and the most sacks in 2006 (a stunning 56 sacks) and won the Grey Cup, mainly because we had such superior talent. But in 2010, with two mobile quarterbacks in Printers and Lulay we gave up 65 sacks again and couldn't overcome. Of course those sack totals don't account for all the pressures and difficult throws that a quarterback has to make in thos situations.

This season we've given up 43 sacks so far. We're seventh in the category with only Hamilton and Winnipeg worst but for the first half of the season we were giving up the most sacks in the CFL. I was wondering when Glenn would take his surrender white flag out there with him but he has taken his beatings without complaint as Dickenson and our other quarterbacks have done over the years. The sacks are only one indicator of the problems that too much defensive pressure creates for an offence. They also hurt field position, take an offence out of field goal range at times, and are drive killers.

Eventually sacks, pressures and hits on a quarterback take their mental as well as physical toll. We have never seemed to be too concerned about it in the Buono era....as Wally said at one time..."That's why we have four of them.

[TheLionKing]

Uuuuugh......how come the Calgary Stampeders have don't seem to have the same execution problems and on game film there are not one or two players missing assignments on each and every play. Is the water that much better in Calgary that players seem to not miss their assigments as often there...

And how come their receivers run their pattern for 5 yards when they need five yards and don't run them for four yards like our recievers supposedly do (they somehow can teach that early enough in the season wheras now at this late date...we are putting markers on the practice field) oooooh and how come when its 3rd down and less than one yard, Calgary sneaks the football and we punt.

Chalk it all up to an INJURY PLAGUED SEASON, rather than a season that was not injury plagued until recently. If the writers were accurate they would call it a INJURY PLAGUED LATTER PART OF THE SEASON, but that might not please Wally.

Answer is obvious, Calgary recruit more intelligent players.

[Rammer]

Uuuuugh......how come the Calgary Stampeders have don't seem to have the same execution problems and on game film there are not one or two players missing assignments on each and every play. Is the water that much better in Calgary that players seem to not miss their assigments as often there...

And how come their receivers run their pattern for 5 yards when they need five yards and don't run them for four yards like our recievers supposedly do (they somehow can teach that early enough in the season wheras now at this late date...we are putting markers on the practice field) oooooh and how come when its 3rd down and less than one yard, Calgary sneaks the football and we punt.

Chalk it all up to an INJURY PLAGUED SEASON, rather than a season that was not injury plagued until recently. If the writers were accurate they would call it a INJURY PLAGUED LATTER PART OF THE SEASON, but that might not please Wally.

Answer is obvious, Calgary recruit more intelligent players.

Watch it or Cornish is going to get a swelled head...

[pennw]

Hey Blitz , i would ask one question to your pondering over those stats and how they relate tot offensive production . If we are pretty good on second down conversion but our over all production seems to not reflect such a thing , how do we stack up on first down plays for 10 yards or more compared to other teams ? I suspect that there may some of our problem . Why always do our running plays on first down as opposed to more randomly have our plays called ? Doesn't that tendency lend to our predictability ? I would say yes .

The other thing of note is that some of our better stats , when did they come ? Lately or earlier in the season in some select games which pad some of our stats of late . How good are our second down conversion stats over say the last 5 games ? Down considerably ?

[Blitz]

Hey Blitz , i would ask one question to your pondering over those stats and how they relate tot offensive production . If we are pretty good on second down conversion but our over all production seems to not reflect such a thing , how do we stack up on first down plays for 10 yards or more compared to other teams ? I suspect that there may some of our problem . Why always do our running plays on first down as opposed to more randomly have our plays called ? Doesn't that tendency lend to our predictability ? I would say yes .

The other thing of note is that some of our better stats , when did they come ? Lately or earlier in the season in some select games which pad some of our stats of late . How good are our second down conversion stats over say the last 5 games ? Down considerably ?

Those are excellent questions penw. I would rather defer to B,.C. Fan for best accuracy with regard to first down production.

I believe that our stats were fattened with a few good games offensively. I agree that we have a tendency to run more on first down that other teams but I don't have a problem with a 50/50 ratio on first down. Where I do have more problems with are 1) our run plays or I should say our zone read run play (which we run over 90% of the time is predictable and 2) when we do pass on first down we rarely play action pass. That would hurt defenses playing our first down tendency.

Secondly, when we do go tight ends we don't throw to them except very, very rarely. I don't agree with using an extra lineman as a tight end because he can't catch and if he could we wouldn't throw to him. We rarely use Lumbala, who would be a great screen option. We don't throw to our wide receivers. So defenses play our run on first down and stack the box and then all they have to do is cover our slots and taiback if we pass on first or second down. Its must be a good week for defensive coordinators game planning to play our Leos.

[Blitz]

Answer is obvious, Calgary recruit more intelligent players.
TheLionKing

LOVE It!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[B.C.FAN]

Hey Blitz , i would ask one question to your pondering over those stats and how they relate tot offensive production . If we are pretty good on second down conversion but our over all production seems to not reflect such a thing , how do we stack up on first down plays for 10 yards or more compared to other teams ? I suspect that there may some of our problem . Why always do our running plays on first down as opposed to more randomly have our plays called ? Doesn't that tendency lend to our predictability ? I would say yes .

The other thing of note is that some of our better stats , when did they come ? Lately or earlier in the season in some select games which pad some of our stats of late . How good are our second down conversion stats over say the last 5 games ? Down considerably ?

Those are excellent questions penw. I would rather defer to B,.C. Fan for best accuracy with regard to first down production.

I believe that our stats were fattened with a few good games offensively. I agree that we have a tendency to run more on first down that other teams but I don't have a problem with a 50/50 ratio on first down. Where I do have more problems with are 1) our run plays or I should say our zone read run play (which we run over 90% of the time is predictable and 2) when we do pass on first down we rarely play action pass. That would hurt defenses playing our first down tendency.

Secondly, when we do go tight ends we don't throw to them except very, very rarely. I don't agree with using an extra lineman as a tight end because he can't catch and if he could we wouldn't throw to him. We rarely use Lumbala, who would be a great screen option. We don't throw to our wide receivers. So defenses play our run on first down and stack the box and then all they have to do is cover our slots and taiback if we pass on first or second down. Its must be a good week for defensive coordinators game planning to play our Leos.

I don't have all the stats pennw requested but I have some and can make some comments about tendencies and predictability.

The Lions first down production lags behind the rest of the league. Everyone knows we are a run-first offence (actually a 50-50 run-pass split on first down but that's more run-oriented than most teams). The Lions use play action effectively to keep defences honest but teams can and do stack the box to stop the Lions' rushing game on first down, and that effectively puts the Lions in a hole. Hamilton did a great job of keying on the B.C. run game last week. As for first-down stats, I don't know how the Lions rank in number of first-down plays of 10 yards or more. I do know the Lions' average first-down production is 5.8 yards, which ranks seventh. The league average on first down is 6.2 yards. Calgary leads the league with an average first-down gain of 7.2 yards.

The offensive production (or non-production) has been fairly consistent thoughout the season but the team's ranking has slipped slightly. For example, the Lions ranked second in net offence after 5 games at an average of 328 yards, third after 10 games at 342 yards and fifth now after 14 games at 323 yards. They have remained among the league leaders in second-down conversion percentage for most of the season, if not actually in the lead.

As for tendencies in general, the Lions' offence is entirely predictable. On first down they often run an inside zone read to the RB or fake it and throw an underneath route to one of the international slots. On second down they throw a short pass to Taylor, Arceneaux or Harris. Those players have been among the league leaders in second-down conversion catches all year. They've had to deal with tight coverage because defences know what's coming but they had trouble stopping it. Now Arceneaux is the only clutch receiver left in the lineup. Ernest Jackson helped pick up the slack in Hamilton but it's a tall order. I've been saying this for a long time, but for the Lions' offence to succeed and to take pressure off the international slots, they need to get more recievers involved in the offence. We've seen more balls targeted at Haidara, Iannuzzi, Gore and Poblah in the past two games. It's up to those players to get open and make the catches.

[Toppy Vann]

83% might be an off hand comment and made up? lol.

There is the spin that teams use and there is the coach and GM's narrative that tells how they see the story of their team and with the Lions it's always a bit negative whether it is run blocking, players vs scheme, etc. It tells us what's on and off the table in the depths of the GM and coaching offices.

My sense is that the narrative this year is like analysts on TV talking down a market. Glass half empty vs half full.

Team leadership was lacking and seems to be that way still. You need a core group of players on all sides of the ball like they seem to have on their DEF and these are the guys who set the tone by their play and who lift the game of everyone not by talking but by performing.

A bad route when Geroy was in the REC corps would not have been tolerated by the players. It can't just be a coach is unhappy - it has to be the players. I don't mean yapping and arguing and criticizing but in the best teams others know they must perform to their team mates satisfaction or else they won't be there and coaches are forced to yank them to keep the balance of the group happy. That is when a coach knows he has a team!!! When he is forced to make a starting or player change as the weak link is failing them. Coach has the most power only when this condition is present.

With these Lions it seems their REC corps accepts none of the blame and there are no high standards or demands on them other than maybe coaches.