Stampeders 14 - Lions 7 Post Game Stats and Comments

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WestCoastJoe
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:12 pm

B.C.FAN wrote:
ballhawk wrote:Wow, I can't believe Coach Benevides made those comments about his other receivers, namely the Canadian receivers. Basically he is saying that they are useless or hopeless. The truth of the matter is that these receivers have had very little chance to participate as the ball is not thrown their way, and worse yet, are ignored (not even looked for) on passing plays. They are not part of scheme or game plan (Gore has had the most opportunties although few, Iannuzzi an occasional look, Publah virtually no looks and throws, and Haidera, Adekolu and Tomusiak are basically sideline observers, untested.

Yes, Gore dropped a couple of short balls (as all good receivers do from time to time), but I can't say these were crucial drops; they were not game changers. The way the Lions were playing, my guess is that had he caught those balls, the Lions would likely have punted on the next series, 10 yards further up the field.

In the Calgary game, it was interesting how often the QB threw to his wide-outs Price and West. Many long balls as well. Bagg, the leading receiver in Saskatchewan is both a Canadian and a wide side wide-out.

I have observed at many of the games I attended wide open national Lions receivers who were simply ignored. In the first Winnipeg game, Iannuzzi was wide, wide open in the end zone but Glenn decided to play to a covered Arceneaux deep in the end zone. Glenn locks on one or two receivers, namely Arceneaux and Taylor/Burnham, and the others are not part of the play. It is like the Lions only throw to those two slot positions; therefore they will probably put Jackson in the Taylor/Burnham position, not his regular short side wide-out position, because they throw almost always to these two slot positions.

In Calgary, relatives at the game mentioned to me that other Lion receivers were open but not thrown to.
Great observations, ballhawk. Thanks. I'd be tempted to put Jackson back at the short-side wide receiver spot and move Poblah or Iannuzzi into the slot. Iannuzzi played there after Burnham was injured. Poblah is a bigger target.
Very telling comments, ballhawk. :thup:

It seems we are stuck in the mud.

When enough players are thrown under the bus, team morale goes down the toilet. Even players with great character are affected.

Benny should have said: "We need to do a better job of putting our players in position to succeed." Benny is in a tough spot. Safer in the short run to blame the players. If he blames the coaches it would probably get uglier, faster. Is this cart heading downhill without good brakes? It kind of seems like a slow motion nightmare. Like a toothache that won't go away.

We will see change. But not for the better. Change with the players. But the odds are the headache will continue.

Cornish and the Stampeders were right in saying that the Lions played hard. But the resolve, the determination to win was with the Stampeders. And it seems to me that is on the coaches.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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WestCoastJoe
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:16 pm

BC Lions

BC LIONS INJURY UPDATE: Both Andrew Harris and Bryan Burnham will be placed on the club's six-game injured list.

Andrew Harris suffered left ankle separation and will undergo surgery Tuesday. Bryan Burnham suffered small laceration to his spleen. Surgery not believed to be required. Should return later in week.

Keep your eye on http://www.bclions.com for more details.
This is so troubling.

Harris is/was our offence. Along with Manny. Burnham looked ready to be a major contributor. I would suggest he already was a key guy.

Why do we not throw to our wideouts? Why? Why? Inexcuseable it seems to me. :dizzy: So Calgary or whichever team faces us just loads up the middle of the field, nine men in coverage.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

TheLionKing
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:20 pm

Benevides should take a hard look at himself before he starts complaining about our Canadian receivers. If they weren't good enough, whose decision was it to keep them in the first place ?

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cromartie
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Imagine that...ride your workhorses to the point of exhaustion due to an ineffective scheme and they break down on you. Go figure.

TheLionKing
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:13 pm

Benevides more and more beginning to look and sound like Buono. The blame is never on the coaches, schemes or playcalling always on players for not executing.

Blitz
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:22 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:Re Dickenson ...

He once expressed the opinion that he was not interested in coaching. And yet, there he is.

He has a condominium in White Rock, presently rented out to Kevin Glenn I believe.

John Hufnagel is 63. He might wish to retain the HC job for a while yet.

I would not discount Dave D as HC for the Lions at some time.
...............

However, Wally Buono is the GM here. He sometimes makes changes at a glacial pace. He has extreme loyalty to some of his subordinates, such as Dorazio, McMann and Benevides. He has extreme patience in trying to let things work out. He seems to dislike change.

We might have to wait for Benevides' contract to run its course. Oh my ...
WCJ - Its interesting to see which subordinates Wally is loyal to and the why For example, Chap left for B.C. for one season, at the end of the 2006 season, after winning a Grey Cup. He was offered the OC position in Edmonton as well as being Associate Head Coach there. He left at the time because he was aware that Benevedes was the heir apparent to Wally. The question is Why was Benevedes the heir apparent? At the time he was our special teams coach who used to run down the sideline like a crazy man if our returner was getting a good return. Makes no sense from the outside looking in. Same goes for Dorazio and McMann..their results have been less than stellar...for example we gave up the most sacks in the CFL in 2005 and 2006 and yet Dorazio was promoted to Co-Offensive Coordinator and he couldn`t even call plays.

Other subordianates have not experienced the same kind of loyalty - and yet performed at a higher level than those mentioned above. Very confusing stuff.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:38 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:
BC Lions

BC LIONS INJURY UPDATE: Both Andrew Harris and Bryan Burnham will be placed on the club's six-game injured list.

Andrew Harris suffered left ankle separation and will undergo surgery Tuesday. Bryan Burnham suffered small laceration to his spleen. Surgery not believed to be required. Should return later in week.

Keep your eye on http://www.bclions.com for more details.
"Bryan Burnham will be placed on the club's six-game injured list", but "Should return later in week"? That confused me, and probably others.

Turns out they mean return from Calgary. He's still there in hospital.

See ya next year, guys.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:40 pm

ballhawk wrote:Wow, I can't believe Coach Benevides made those comments about his other receivers, namely the Canadian receivers. Basically he is saying that they are useless or hopeless. The truth of the matter is that these receivers have had very little chance to participate as the ball is not thrown their way, and worse yet, are ignored (not even looked for) on passing plays. They are not part of scheme or game plan (Gore has had the most opportunties although few, Iannuzzi an occasional look, Publah virtually no looks and throws, and Haidera, Adekolu and Tomusiak are basically sideline observers, untested.

Yes, Gore dropped a couple of short balls (as all good receivers do from time to time), but I can't say these were crucial drops; they were not game changers. The way the Lions were playing, my guess is that had he caught those balls, the Lions would likely have punted on the next series, 10 yards further up the field.

In the Calgary game, it was interesting how often the QB threw to his wide-outs Price and West. Many long balls as well. Bagg, the leading receiver in Saskatchewan is both a Canadian and a wide side wide-out.

I have observed at many of the games I attended wide open national Lions receivers who were simply ignored. In the first Winnipeg game, Iannuzzi was wide, wide open in the end zone but Glenn decided to play to a covered Arceneaux deep in the end zone. Glenn locks on one or two receivers, namely Arceneaux and Taylor/Burnham, and the others are not part of the play. It is like the Lions only throw to those two slot positions; therefore they will probably put Jackson in the Taylor/Burnham position, not his regular short side wide-out position, because they throw almost always to these two slot positions.

In Calgary, relatives at the game mentioned to me that other Lion receivers were open but not thrown to.
The last few games the Canadian receivers have not done much to rise above and deliver. They have dropped passes (crucial times or not is a judgement call as a 1st and 10 drop for 6 yards may be crucial for keeping giving us short yardage to work with o the next play) far too often this year. When the ball hits them in the hands, they need to catch it. Maybe they need to get back to basics and start practicing the age-old diamond, but the bottom line remains, when dropping passes, the QB and the OC tend to lose faith in your ability and you are no longer a receiver as much as you are a "route runner".

That having been said, I concur with you. There have been many times receivers (regardless of nationality) have been wide open and either Kevin Glenn can't see them, they are too far down the check list, or the oline hasn't given Glenn time to do his second or third reads. Perhaps this is something the OC should look at, making those routes that are getting open, to become the first look. Glenn needs to look downfield better, and right now I do not think he has good downfield vision. I'd love to watch the game from the sidelines and see where his eyes go when he gets out from under centre in a passing play. Where the QB looks on a passing play first can tell you lots about the frame of mind the QB is in.

With Andrew Harris out now, the receiving corps is going to have to step it up a notch. That means getting downfield faster, getting into their routes quicker and getting those big mitts on the ball and squeezing. Curious if they can step up to the challenge.
Now that I don't live in Quesnel do I need to change my handle??

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cromartie
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:11 pm

The problems in the passing game are not hard to figure out.

Whether it's the limitations of the scheme, the limitations of Glenn, or a combination of both, you need only look between the hashes to see where the ball is going. This passing game is not planned around and is not executed outside of the hashes.

In another thread, Marco Ianuzzi's play was discussed and it was note that in the last game he had one reception on two targets. When you put your National receivers at outside positions, they aren't going to see the ball. Gore gets targets because he frequently runs a drag route across the middle of the field. Everyone else you've mentioned doesn't. Glenn's bread and butter deep ball is to Arceneaux on a post pattern. Between the hashes.

This is not an offense that operates frequently or effectively toward the sidelines. The Naitonal receivers may be great, they may not, but there's no way to evaluate them if they aren't given targets in a scheme that isn't setup to use them.

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:50 pm

cromartie wrote:The problems in the passing game are not hard to figure out.

Whether it's the limitations of the scheme, the limitations of Glenn, or a combination of both, you need only look between the hashes to see where the ball is going. This passing game is not planned around and is not executed outside of the hashes.

In another thread, Marco Ianuzzi's play was discussed and it was note that in the last game he had one reception on two targets. When you put your National receivers at outside positions, they aren't going to see the ball. Gore gets targets because he frequently runs a drag route across the middle of the field. Everyone else you've mentioned doesn't. Glenn's bread and butter deep ball is to Arceneaux on a post pattern. Between the hashes.

This is not an offense that operates frequently or effectively toward the sidelines. The Naitonal receivers may be great, they may not, but there's no way to evaluate them if they aren't given targets in a scheme that isn't setup to use them.
The big question is why? Why would an offensive coordinator not realize the strong tendency, knowing defenses are overplaying our tendency, and not adapt?
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:56 pm

ballhawk wrote:Wow, I can't believe Coach Benevides made those comments about his other receivers, namely the Canadian receivers. Basically he is saying that they are useless or hopeless. The truth of the matter is that these receivers have had very little chance to participate as the ball is not thrown their way, and worse yet, are ignored (not even looked for) on passing plays. They are not part of scheme or game plan (Gore has had the most opportunties although few, Iannuzzi an occasional look, Publah virtually no looks and throws, and Haidera, Adekolu and Tomusiak are basically sideline observers, untested.

Yes, Gore dropped a couple of short balls (as all good receivers do from time to time), but I can't say these were crucial drops; they were not game changers. The way the Lions were playing, my guess is that had he caught those balls, the Lions would likely have punted on the next series, 10 yards further up the field.

In the Calgary game, it was interesting how often the QB threw to his wide-outs Price and West. Many long balls as well. Bagg, the leading receiver in Saskatchewan is both a Canadian and a wide side wide-out.

I have observed at many of the games I attended wide open national Lions receivers who were simply ignored. In the first Winnipeg game, Iannuzzi was wide, wide open in the end zone but Glenn decided to play to a covered Arceneaux deep in the end zone. Glenn locks on one or two receivers, namely Arceneaux and Taylor/Burnham, and the others are not part of the play. It is like the Lions only throw to those two slot positions; therefore they will probably put Jackson in the Taylor/Burnham position, not his regular short side wide-out position, because they throw almost always to these two slot positions.

In Calgary, relatives at the game mentioned to me that other Lion receivers were open but not thrown to.
This has been my concern all season. Everyone is talking about how lucky we are to have Glenn. Interceptions, no mobility and telescoping on 1 (sometimes 2) receivers each game. I don't know if this is on KG or KJ, but something needs to happen. If we only use 1 or 2 receivers and one RB, it makes it pretty easy for a defence to plan against us.

TheLionKing
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:04 pm

Blitz wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:Re Dickenson ...

He once expressed the opinion that he was not interested in coaching. And yet, there he is.

He has a condominium in White Rock, presently rented out to Kevin Glenn I believe.

John Hufnagel is 63. He might wish to retain the HC job for a while yet.

I would not discount Dave D as HC for the Lions at some time.
...............

However, Wally Buono is the GM here. He sometimes makes changes at a glacial pace. He has extreme loyalty to some of his subordinates, such as Dorazio, McMann and Benevides. He has extreme patience in trying to let things work out. He seems to dislike change.

We might have to wait for Benevides' contract to run its course. Oh my ...
WCJ - Its interesting to see which subordinates Wally is loyal to and the why For example, Chap left for B.C. for one season, at the end of the 2006 season, after winning a Grey Cup. He was offered the OC position in Edmonton as well as being Associate Head Coach there. He left at the time because he was aware that Benevedes was the heir apparent to Wally. The question is Why was Benevedes the heir apparent? At the time he was our special teams coach who used to run down the sideline like a crazy man if our returner was getting a good return. Makes no sense from the outside looking in. Same goes for Dorazio and McMann..their results have been less than stellar...for example we gave up the most sacks in the CFL in 2005 and 2006 and yet Dorazio was promoted to Co-Offensive Coordinator and he couldn`t even call plays.

Other subordianates have not experienced the same kind of loyalty - and yet performed at a higher level than those mentioned above. Very confusing stuff.
Very very good question. Love to be a fly in Buono's office.

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David
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:26 pm

Blitz wrote:WCJ - Its interesting to see which subordinates Wally is loyal to and the why For example, Chap left for B.C. for one season, at the end of the 2006 season, after winning a Grey Cup. He was offered the OC position in Edmonton as well as being Associate Head Coach there. He left at the time because he was aware that Benevedes was the heir apparent to Wally. The question is Why was Benevedes the heir apparent? At the time he was our special teams coach who used to run down the sideline like a crazy man if our returner was getting a good return. Makes no sense from the outside looking in. Same goes for Dorazio and McMann..their results have been less than stellar...for example we gave up the most sacks in the CFL in 2005 and 2006 and yet Dorazio was promoted to Co-Offensive Coordinator and he couldn`t even call plays.

Other subordianates have not experienced the same kind of loyalty - and yet performed at a higher level than those mentioned above.
Very confusing stuff.
Let's just say "the Lord works in mysterious ways," if you catch my drift....


DH :cool:
Please sell the team, Mr. Braley.

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David
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:46 pm

Lions4ever wrote:
pennw wrote:Jcalhoun ,To your question regarding Beck , that guy couldn't even complete a pass to a wide open receiver 10 yards in front of him with out hitting the ground 5 yards up field.
I get the impression his arm is just flat-out shot.
Actually, no. Ironically, Beck might have the liveliest arm among all 4 BC quarterbacks (including a healthy Travis). It's just that between the practice field and when the stadium lights get turned on, something goes horribly wrong.

There's no way a guy with his knowledge and experience should look that uncomfortable behind centre. He's been here since April. He sees lots of first team reps in practice. He's had real playing time now. Hell, he even instructs elite level QBs at an academy in the off-season. How can he be doing silly things like throwing off his back foot instead of stepping into his throws?


DH :cool:
Please sell the team, Mr. Braley.

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WestCoastJoe
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:02 pm

Blitz wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:Re Dickenson ...

He once expressed the opinion that he was not interested in coaching. And yet, there he is.

He has a condominium in White Rock, presently rented out to Kevin Glenn I believe.

John Hufnagel is 63. He might wish to retain the HC job for a while yet.

I would not discount Dave D as HC for the Lions at some time.
...............

However, Wally Buono is the GM here. He sometimes makes changes at a glacial pace. He has extreme loyalty to some of his subordinates, such as Dorazio, McMann and Benevides. He has extreme patience in trying to let things work out. He seems to dislike change.

We might have to wait for Benevides' contract to run its course. Oh my ...
WCJ - Its interesting to see which subordinates Wally is loyal to and the why For example, Chap left for B.C. for one season, at the end of the 2006 season, after winning a Grey Cup. He was offered the OC position in Edmonton as well as being Associate Head Coach there. He left at the time because he was aware that Benevedes was the heir apparent to Wally. The question is Why was Benevedes the heir apparent? At the time he was our special teams coach who used to run down the sideline like a crazy man if our returner was getting a good return. Makes no sense from the outside looking in. Same goes for Dorazio and McMann..their results have been less than stellar...for example we gave up the most sacks in the CFL in 2005 and 2006 and yet Dorazio was promoted to Co-Offensive Coordinator and he couldn`t even call plays.

Other subordianates have not experienced the same kind of loyalty - and yet performed at a higher level than those mentioned above. Very confusing stuff.
Comfort zone, it seems to me, Blitz.

Football is a very, very high stress business. For all involved. It can be expected that in a high stress business some of the decisions are influenced by the need for some comfort. And Wally's decision making approach has served him well for over 20 years.

What makes up a comfort zone? One or more of the following.

Same nationality.

Same family.

Same school.

Same religion.

Same position.

Same ethnicity.

Same language.

Familiarity.

Agreeability.

Friends.

Easy rapport.

Same view on issues.

All understandable. For friendship.

But none of these things should affect business personnel/hiring decisions, it seems to me. Best qualified person for the job should be the criteria. But human nature being what it is, many leaders go the comfort route.

Some lifers on staff seem to face no consequences, and seem to need little in the way of success at their jobs. No wide ranging search was done to find a highly qualified successor. There were relatively few achievements or credentials on the resume of the chosen one, of the protege. Appearances matter in public professions. Due diligence should be done, or backlash can develop. If Mike Benevides had shown playoff success, or maintained the level of success of his mentor, or seemed to be growing in the job, all would be accepted by the fans. That does not seem to be the course we are on.

But ...

If we squeak into the playoffs, a definite possibility, and if we win a game or two, then Wally once again can feel that his loyalty and patience have been the right way to do business. If we were to win two games in the playoffs, it would be hard to argue against his view, despite our declining regular season record. If we squeak in, and lose right away, questions will still be asked.

12 years of Wally's regime, including 2014. Two Grey Cups, pending the outcome of this year. That is almost par for the course in the 8 team CFL (now 9 of course). Good but not great. Especially for a team with stable management, stable, loyal deep-pocketed ownership, stable training grounds, stable organization and team staff, and a stable stadium situation. Some of the other teams, in that time, have had major issues with ownership, stadiums, management, et cetera.

Par for the course?

Since 2003, Edmonton has won two GCs. Toronto has won two. Montreal has won two. Saskatchewan has won two. B.C. has won two. Since 2008, both Calgary and B.C. have won one. It is not like we are way out in front of the crowd. We are in the mix. And slipping, it seems to some of us. Not in our efforts, but the bar has risen around the league.

I think we have been so starved for winning teams out here that we have given Teflon status to Wally, for the stability and success he has brought the Lions, and for his great work in the community. It is still a public profession, however, with all the scrutiny and judgment that goes along with it.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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