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Rammer
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KnowItAll wrote:
Rammer wrote:
KnowItAll wrote: ouch..no one ever said that to me before.


Its possible....naahhh

So, tell me what I don't know that's relevant to this topic.

go ahead, I dare ya :wink:
Can you tell me why the Defences are dominating to the point of allowing one less TD, or two FG's and a rouge per game?
each D is only allowing about 3.5 less pts a game. don't call that dominating.
As we can see by the evidence that BCFAN has posted, D's are scoring 66% more this season, let alone the % of points scored on turnovers... as well the ST
s are scoring more, reducing the offensive points scored significantly, and not at the 3.5 points per game per team less that you indicated. You don't KnowItAll?
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KnowItAll
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Rammer wrote:
As we can see by the evidence that BCFAN has posted, D's are scoring 66% more this season, let alone the % of points scored on turnovers... as well the ST
s are scoring more, reducing the offensive points scored significantly, and not at the 3.5 points per game per team less that you indicated. You don't KnowItAll?

well...I used to know it all about 35 yrs ago :wink:
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South Pender
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sj-roc wrote:I'm not arguing about +X% —> +Y%. I'm only arguing about X% and X%. The impetus for my initial comment was BC Fan's comment that "Overall scoring is down 14% to 45.3 points per game from 52.4 points. Interestingly, net offence is down only 7%...". Whether this wording was his or from another source, it implies to me — whether or not it was so intended — that a 14% scoring decrease ought to have originated from a similar decrease in offensive production, but this need not be the case as I asserted. You've framed the point as X and Y, not X and X as I had done, which is fine and actually commensurate with my point — it's a Y, not another X, and it's tough to pin down anything about Y other than it has the same sign as X; as you note it's the nature of correlation. Yeah, so they both went down. Big deal. If the NFL in 2014 sees an offensive yardage increase of say, 15%, would the last 50 years of stats tell you anything about how many more points (not just THAT there will be more) this translates into? I suppose the historical data might allow you to put a reasonable 95% confidence interval on it.

Perhaps I should clarify that I'm not using any strict mathematical definition of "strong" correlation specifically (is there one? is, say |CC|> 0.5 formally labelled as a "strong" correlation?), merely a qualitative one.
I get your point. However, using %age as the metric is misleading and is what is causing the confusion and different interpretations we have. The metrics of the two variables (overall scoring and net offense) differ, and this means that %age increases or decreases are non-comparable. Say that in 2013, mean total points/game/team was 25, and the standard deviation (SD)was 1. And mean net offense/game/team was 300 with a SD of 30. A one-point increase in mean total points is a larger increase than an increase in mean net offense of 20 points (if both variables are cast into comparable units), yet the former is 4% and the latter is 6.66%. To know whether any two figures are consistent, we need to know the metric of the variables (their standard deviations). So the 14% may be equivalent to the 7% (if both were rendered in comparable units) or it might not be.

But to answer your question, yes, the data accumulated over the past 50 years does tell us something about how many more points to expect if a certain increase in offensive yardage is recorded. Just not in the %age metric. If the offensive yardage increase is 15%--and that represents a one standard-deviation increase (this latter being the key number)--then I will expect (via simple linear regression) a 2/3SD increase in number of points. Once I know the value of that standard deviation, I can translate that into an expected increase in actual points. And, sure, I could put a .95 CI around it.
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sj-roc
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South Pender wrote:I get your point. However, using %age as the metric is misleading and is what is causing the confusion and different interpretations we have.
Exactly. That was my main point: the two percentages were presented with the apparent framing that one might expect them to be the same, but there's no a priori reason to assume this from what was given.
The metrics of the two variables (overall scoring and net offense) differ, and this means that %age increases or decreases are non-comparable. Say that in 2013, mean total points/game/team was 25, and the standard deviation (SD)was 1. And mean net offense/game/team was 300 with a SD of 30. A one-point increase in mean total points is a larger increase than an increase in mean net offense of 20 points (if both variables are cast into comparable units), yet the former is 4% and the latter is 6.66%. To know whether any two figures are consistent, we need to know the metric of the variables (their standard deviations). So the 14% may be equivalent to the 7% (if both were rendered in comparable units) or it might not be.
Yes, if we know how tightly clustered one variable is over many trials while the other is held fixed then this can be useful as you say; it's just that we weren't discussing it in such terms. If the 14 and 7 were the same when expressed in terms of their respective SD's then it would make some sense. But we don't have this information (at least it hasn't been presented so far; maybe it's out there somewhere or in worst case could be determined, laboriously, from the collection of available raw data).
But to answer your question, yes, the data accumulated over the past 50 years does tell us something about how many more points to expect if a certain increase in offensive yardage is recorded. Just not in the %age metric. If the offensive yardage increase is 15%--and that represents a one standard-deviation increase (this latter being the key number)--then I will expect (via simple linear regression) a 2/3SD increase in number of points. Once I know the value of that standard deviation, I can translate that into an expected increase in actual points. And, sure, I could put a .95 CI around it.
Again that was my main point. But I have to admit you've lost me on the 2/3SD, that a one-sigma change in one variable causes a 2/3-sigma change in the other (in same direction of course since it's positive correlation). Where do you get this 2/3 fraction; am I missing something?
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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KnowItAll
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sheesh, you guys put me to shame. Sometimes I think I have accidentely logged onto a mensa website. :cool:
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South Pender
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sj-roc wrote:Again that was my main point. But I have to admit you've lost me on the 2/3SD, that a one-sigma change in one variable causes a 2/3-sigma change in the other (in same direction of course since it's positive correlation). Where do you get this 2/3 fraction; am I missing something?
Oh, that follows from the .66 correlation I mentioned a few posts back (from the 50-year NFL data). You know we really can't say that one variable causes the other when we're dealing with correlational data, but rather that the two variables are associated (causal pathways have to be established by other means). So, if we have an increase of one SD in one of the two variables, we expect an increase of .66 SD in the other if the correlation is .66. Of course, regression is a two-way phenomenon--Sir Francis Galton's regression towards the mean.

Anyway, in the present football context, the 50-year NFL data yielded a correlation of .66 between points scored and net offense (with year the unit of analysis). So, if, in 2014, one of these (points scored or net offense) increases by one SD, our least-squares prediction is that the other will increase by .66 SD. Just basic linear regression.
TheLionKing
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All this talk about correlation, means, variables brings me back to my statistics course in university.
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B.C.FAN
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sj-roc wrote:
B.C.FAN wrote:Penalties are up sharply this year, and that interrupts game flow, yet the average length of games has increased by only a
minute to 2:56, and that can be explained by an extra minute of TV commercials added this year with the new TSN contract.
Interesting. Do you have any sort of team-by-team breakdown on this?

I distinctly recall a Lions home game this year that wrapped at something like 9:50 or 9:51pm (from a 7pm kickoff, I think it was the one vs Wpg). The early finish really stood out to me as far below average, for BCP anyway.
No. Average game time is one of many CFL-wide statistics published by the league each week but I haven't seen times for individual games or team averages. Here's the average CFL game time for the past four years:

2011 (72 games): 2:53
2012 (72 games): 2:53
2013 (72 games): 2:55
2014 (41 games): 2:56
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sj-roc
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B.C.FAN wrote:
sj-roc wrote:
B.C.FAN wrote:Penalties are up sharply this year, and that interrupts game flow, yet the average length of games has increased by only a
minute to 2:56, and that can be explained by an extra minute of TV commercials added this year with the new TSN contract.
Interesting. Do you have any sort of team-by-team breakdown on this?

I distinctly recall a Lions home game this year that wrapped at something like 9:50 or 9:51pm (from a 7pm kickoff, I think it was the one vs Wpg). The early finish really stood out to me as far below average, for BCP anyway.
No. Average game time is one of many CFL-wide statistics published by the league each week but I haven't seen times for individual games or team averages. Here's the average CFL game time for the past four years:

2011 (72 games): 2:53
2012 (72 games): 2:53
2013 (72 games): 2:55
2014 (41 games): 2:56
I wonder if these stats are measured not from the broadcast sign-on but rather from the exact time of the kickoff some 10 minutes later? If these were Lions numbers I'd have to believe the latter for sure; they prob are anyway and would translate to a broadcast that goes past the 3hr mark (and growing in recent years however you slice it). I checked cfldb.ca to see how many OT games were played in these years and it's negligible (0 in 2011; 1 each in 2012 & 2013, which in each case required only one round; 0 so far this year; there were 5 in 2010 that went a total of 7 extra rounds) so this isn't skewing the averages much.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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sj-roc
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TheLionKing wrote:All this talk about correlation, means, variables brings me back to my statistics course in university.
And you thought it was all a waste of time. :twisted:

87% of all people know that statistics can be useful. ;)
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
TheLionKing
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sj-roc wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:All this talk about correlation, means, variables brings me back to my statistics course in university.
And you thought it was all a waste of time. :twisted:

87% of all people know that statistics can be useful. ;)
Actually I aced that course which surprised the heck out of me. :wink:
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JohnHenry
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The coach has chimed in with his interpretation of the scoring drought (hey, I think he's stealing my materal... :cool: )
Where are all the Points?

By Paul LaPolice

A few thoughts on where all the points are going this season. This has been talked about by everyone, the lack of scoring this season. Let's talk about a couple of the things that could be affecting scoring in the CFL.

Canadian ratio-changers: Canadians starting at positions usually reserved for Internationals like running back. Calgary and BC both play Canadian running backs freeing up an American spot to go on defence. Calgary usually is able to start 11 Internationals on defence, which makes them a very fast defensive unit. With the talent of Nationals, teams are able to start six of their seven on offence and only one on defence.

Addition of a fourth Designated Import: Teams are allowed to play with four DIs this year; up from three last year. A lot of teams use three DIs on defence: one on the DL, one at LB, and one in the secondary. This allows for more substitutions of International defensive lineman every game, keeping everyone fresh on the defensive front. The LBer DI can be inserted in the game as either a run stopper or a coverage player. The DI in the secondary is inserted into team's extra defensive back coverage schemes. This allows for more sophisticated coverages and also a better ability to disguise coverage. For example, if you want to get the DI DB in the game for a National DB, the DI DB and a National DL would go in while the National DB and an International DL would go out. More... http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=461018
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WestCoastJoe
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http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=461018
LAPOLICE: SOME THOUGHTS ON THE LOW SCORING THIS SEASON

Where are all the Points?

A few thoughts on where all the points are going this season. This has been talked about by everyone, the lack of scoring this season. Let's talk about a couple of the things that could be affecting scoring in the CFL.

Canadian ratio-changers Canadians starting at positions usually reserved for Internationals like running back. Calgary and BC both play Canadian running backs freeing up an American spot to go on defence. Calgary usually is able to start 11 Internationals on defence, which makes them a very fast defensive unit. With the talent of Nationals, teams are able to start six of their seven on offence and only one on defence.

Addition of a fourth Designated Import Teams are allowed to play with four DIs this year; up from three last year. A lot of teams use three DIs on defence: one on the DL, one at LB, and one in the secondary. This allows for more substitutions of International defensive lineman every game, keeping everyone fresh on the defensive front. The LBer DI can be inserted in the game as either a run stopper or a coverage player. The DI in the secondary is inserted into team's extra defensive back coverage schemes. This allows for more sophisticated coverages and also a better ability to disguise coverage. For example, if you want to get the DI DB in the game for a National DB, the DI DB and a National DL would go in while the National DB and an International DL would go out.

More complex coverages in today's CFL Defences have had to evolve to handle the offences of today and they have done a great job of it. When I was a coordinator in 2002 and 2003, the coverages you would see were much simpler; a lot of man coverage and forms of Three Deep coverage. Now a days, there are a lot of combination coverages and what is called pattern reading where DBs and LBs run underneath and right to cover the routes that they recognize compared to dropping into designated zones on the field. The defensive coaches in the league are very good and know what they are doing. They deserve a lot of credit for the job they do.

Changes in personnel Take a look at some of the changes in QBs this season. Start in Montreal where a Hall of Fame QB in Anthony Calvillo is replaced by QBs with far less experience and reps in games. Henry Burris will probably be a Hall of Fame member and his numbers are not very good this season. He needs to take some of the blame but also having a very young team around can make it difficult to produce at a high level. Ricky Ray will be a first ballot Hall of Famer and he has been missing most of his receiving corps for a good part of the season, including former CFL Outstanding Player Chad Owens. I would think that would hurt your ability to score in the pass heavy CFL. Five teams (EDM, CGY, WPG, MTL, HAM) are all starting QBs who do not have a lot of experience and have not been full-time starters until this year. I know Mike Reilly was a full-time starter last year but it is still only his second year as a starter compared to the vets like Ray, Burris, and Kevin Glenn.

There is still half a season to go and it will be interesting to see if the young QBs will settle down and whether the offences will begin to gel and start scoring more points. Tune in and watch!
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Coast Mountain Lion
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sj-roc wrote:
87% of all people know that statistics can be useful. ;)
73% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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sj-roc
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Coast Mountain Lion wrote:
sj-roc wrote:
87% of all people know that statistics can be useful. ;)
73% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
I wanted to post this earlier but couldn't find it til just now:
[video][/video]
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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