Westerman charged re: alleged nightclub incident

[Lions4ever]

The incident occurred after the first home game, June 29th, so he's played 4 games since then.

I don't agree with punishing players for "alleged" misconduct......in a country where innocent until PROVEN guilty is supposed to be the accepted norm, this practise of "guilty by pointed finger", I find particularly distasteful. The media has a way of bending the truth to make a story more exciting/controversial for their benefit and fans base their opinion on what the media tells them. Many instances of false accusations/bogus charges from law enforcement/misguided condemnation from fans have occurred in the past.

I would like to see the Lions take a "wait and see" attitude with ALL these types of incidents......then take the appropriate action AFTER the player has been CONVICTED of a crime.

I profoundly disagree with this. Charlie Strong at Texas has dismissed 7 players already, some of which were sexual assault allegations. He's not waiting for the courts. They're gone. Buh-bye. You're done.

This organization has been very vocal about backing the "Break The Silence" campaign on domestic violence and one of their guys is implicated in an alleged punch up at a bar? (Who cares who the other party was...it's irrelevant to the act IMO). Get rid of him .... NOW!

EDIT: I should say that I certainly believe in second chances. He can have his somewhere else.

Wow......so it wouldn't matter if he was innocent of all charges......punish him anyway !!

In my view, formal legal culpability is irrelevant. It's a character and PR issue between an employer and employee. If I'm the employer in this situation, he's fired.

[Shi Zi Mi]

In my view, formal legal culpability is irrelevant. It's a character and PR issue between an employer and employee. If I'm the employer in this situation, he's fired.

I'm fairly certain you would then have to contend with a wrongful dismissal lawsuit......in order to fire someone, you REQUIRE proof of wrong doing. So far, that hasn't been established and may never be established.....or it may be established and punishment should be dealt out at THAT TIME.

[Blue In BC]

In my view, formal legal culpability is irrelevant. It's a character and PR issue between an employer and employee. If I'm the employer in this situation, he's fired.

I'm fairly certain you would then have to contend with a wrongful dismissal lawsuit......in order to fire someone, you REQUIRE proof of wrong doing. So far, that hasn't been established and may never be established.....or it may be established and punishment should be dealt out at THAT TIME.

He wasn't fired and he's receiving his full pay. He just can't play in this game. Doesn't seem like an over the top punishment.

[Shi Zi Mi]

In my view, formal legal culpability is irrelevant. It's a character and PR issue between an employer and employee. If I'm the employer in this situation, he's fired.

I'm fairly certain you would then have to contend with a wrongful dismissal lawsuit......in order to fire someone, you REQUIRE proof of wrong doing. So far, that hasn't been established and may never be established.....or it may be established and punishment should be dealt out at THAT TIME.

He wasn't fired and he's receiving his full pay. He just can't play in this game. Doesn't seem like an over the top punishment.

Punishment for what?

[Toppy Vann]

All those in favour of justice being meted out before conviction swallow the BC Lions Kool-Aid but ignore all the other times when they turned a blind eye to incidents.

If Westerman was out at 4 am pre game then that is the issue the Lions should have suspended him with pay for and made it very clear that this punishment was not intended to suggest guilt or innocence in a case that has not been heard in a court of law. The Lions would fully be within their good community interests employer to take this line as in Canada a person is deemed innocent until proven guilty.

If this guy was a top starter and vital to their interests they 'd have taken a far different approach here.

Their actions suggest they know the player to be guilty and we all know these things don't always turn out to be slam dunk convictions.

Westerman might owe his employer an explanation as to why he was there but he has a right not to have his employer try him in the court of public opinion before he gets due process and a fair trial.

Normally when a player is suspended like that the team and he will both make a statement as the guy deserves the right to be heard. But in the case there is not a trial and these things have a way of becoming stays of proceedings when Crown Counsel gets a report and witness accounts and decides there is not a likelihood of conviction and moves on or a judge hears a bunch of witnesses and believes them not to be credible and finds the accused not guilty.

When Riley Cooper was exposed for the racial slur (video proof) the Eagles immediately sent him not only away but Cooper said he was told (GM? I do not recall) to go out and face the media. Cooper did. http://www.ibtimes.com/philadelphia-eag ... nd-twitter

Cooper was out of control at the Kenny Chesney concert and this whole event seemed to smarten him up. His immediate statement as he went out to face the media with no advisors to tell him what to say - him not knowing if the NFL would suspend him - allowed the team to deal with fast in pre-season and let the player get redemption.

If the case was at a trial and they told him to go outside and face the media immediately they'd have been wrong as it puts him in a position that could prejudice a trial.

[TheLionKing]

If Travis Lulay was the one who threw the punch, would we so anxious to convict him ?

[Blue In BC]

He wasn't suspended. He was moved to the 2 man reserve with full pay. I don't know if the 4:00 am was valid or just a rhetorical comment.

Every player is a representative of the organization and he got his name in the paper in a bad context. It's not relavant whether he is quilty of the " punch " or not.

You can take the guilty before proven a bit too far. I doubt there is little doubt he threw a punch. He may have been provoked and he may have been defending himself. In that sense it doesn't matter. It might matter if he was found to be intoxicated and was actually the instigator. If that happens then we can discuss the level of punishment that might be levied at that time.

My impression was that he was with other team mates at the time and would think the team discussed this with him and / or those other team mates. It's not like the decision was made in a vacuum or only influenced by media.

EDIT: I see EJ Kuale may be in trouble in Winnipeg for an inappropriate gesture made towards fans after the gun sounded in Hamilton last week. I can see a similar possiblity that he might be fined by either the CFl, the team or both. He might also face missing a game by being placed on the 2 man reserve.

If that happens I will support that action as well. According to the report, several sources ( media and fans ) have reported this gesture ( crotch grabbing )directed at some TiCat fans. Not very classy.

[Rammer]

He wasn't suspended. He was moved to the 2 man reserve with full pay. I don't know if the 4:00 am was valid or just a rhetorical comment.

Every player is a representative of the organization and he got his name in the paper in a bad context. It's not relavant whether he is quilty of the " punch " or not.

You can take the guilty before proven a bit too far. I doubt there is little doubt he threw a punch. He may have been provoked and he may have been defending himself. In that sense it doesn't matter. It might matter if he was found to be intoxicated and was actually the instigator. If that happens then we can discuss the level of punishment that might be levied at that time.

My impression was that he was with other team mates at the time and would think the team discussed this with him and / or those other team mates. It's not like the decision was made in a vacuum or only influenced by media.

EDIT: I see EJ Kuale may be in trouble in Winnipeg for an inappropriate gesture made towards fans after the gun sounded in Hamilton last week. I can see a similar possiblity that he might be fined by either the CFl, the team or both. He might also face missing a game by being placed on the 2 man reserve.

If that happens I will support that action as well. According to the report, several sources ( media and fans ) have reported this gesture ( crotch grabbing )directed at some TiCat fans. Not very classy.

The CFLPA limits the action the CFL and clubs can evoke upon a player, so if one or the other place a fine/suspension, it isn't likely that the both would do so. Bottom line is that Wally knows what went down, he made a decision in the clubs interest and since it wasn't as harsh as it could be, he does leave an opening if the charges stick. All this is done in timely fashion in comparison to the courts (look at the Smith/Anderson Rider court case), in order to keep the remainder of the team on track for the season.

[Shi Zi Mi]

News1130 Sports ‏@News1130Sports 2h

Been told #BCLions DL Jabar Westerman will dress and play Friday vs Ham despite off-field nightclub incident.

[Hambone]

We don't know much, if anything, about the details that led the squad to sit Westerman for a game in lieu of suspending him. Was this an over-reaction (in the opinion of some) to an isolated incident? According to others it's inadequate action. Was it an isolated incident or have there been other signs that Westerman may not be quite as focused as he should be on the task of being a pro football player? Seems to me there have been comments re: Westerman that what's been holding him back as a player is inconsistency and lack of focus at times. Perhaps the recent disciplanary action was deemed necessary as a wakeup call. It's all fine and dandy to play the "innocent until proven guilty" card but at times it is necessary for a team to step in and be proactive as opposed to turning and looking the other way while waiting for the lethargic wheels of justice to do the job for them. If the team doesn't step in now to send Westerman a message what's to stop history from repeating itself in the meantime?

[sj-roc]

News1130 Sports ‏@News1130Sports 2h

Been told #BCLions DL Jabar Westerman will dress and play Friday vs Ham despite off-field nightclub incident.

So, basically a one-game quasi-suspension with pay.

I'm not trying to take sides here in how the club is handling this situation, but one angle on it that sticks out for me is the timing of when the story surfaced. Westerman was charged on Tuesday, July 29 according to LU's piece that broke the story. I don't know exactly when the Lions became aware of the situation, but they had sufficient lead time to bench him (he was also absent from several team practices), with MB saying pre-game that "he's got some personal things to sort out," without elaboration.

LU's piece is time-stamped Sat Aug 2, 12:27am, under 4 hours after the Cgy game ended. Assuming LU himself didn't sit on the story — I don't really know one way or the other but it's tough to imagine any reporter holding back a scoop very long — then it looks like the Lions followed the time-honoured tradition of disclosing bad news late on a Friday; in this case, conveniently just before a long weekend. The story includes quotes from WB addressing the matter but it's not clear exactly when he made them or in what setting.

[Lions4ever]

In my view, formal legal culpability is irrelevant. It's a character and PR issue between an employer and employee. If I'm the employer in this situation, he's fired.

I'm fairly certain you would then have to contend with a wrongful dismissal lawsuit......in order to fire someone, you REQUIRE proof of wrong doing. So far, that hasn't been established and may never be established.....or it may be established and punishment should be dealt out at THAT TIME.

Nope. This is football and you can just cut a guy, and that's what I'd do if I, the pretend GM, had found out one of my charges was tossing knuckles somewhere in public. I don't care about the rest of it. Clean outcher locker. The bus station is that way.

[DanoT]

In my view, formal legal culpability is irrelevant. It's a character and PR issue between an employer and employee. If I'm the employer in this situation, he's fired.

I'm fairly certain you would then have to contend with a wrongful dismissal lawsuit......in order to fire someone, you REQUIRE proof of wrong doing. So far, that hasn't been established and may never be established.....or it may be established and punishment should be dealt out at THAT TIME.

Nope. This is football and you can just cut a guy, and that's what I'd do if I, the pretend GM, had found out one of my charges was tossing knuckles somewhere in public. I don't care about the rest of it. Clean outcher locker. The bus station is that way.

Lions4ever, I'm glad you are not the Lions GM because with you very strict code of conduct, releasing players with no warnings or 2nd chances, you'd have the Lions in the basement...oh wait, they already are in last place and without your help.

[Lions4ever]

Lions4ever, I'm glad you are not the Lions GM because with you very strict code of conduct, releasing players with no warnings or 2nd chances, you'd have the Lions in the basement...oh wait, they already are in last place and without your help.

I don't think it's a "strict" code of conduct at all. I said I believed in second chances. Read my earlier post. Just elsewhere. Look, here's a guy...a visible, comparatively high-profile person on a sports team that looks to this community for support and presumably values a relationship of high goodwill with that community....who are running an anti-violence campaign and who has, apparently, seen fit to depart from the standards of civilized society. The good ol' days of boys will be boys is over. And rightly so.

[DanoT]

Lions4ever, I'm glad you are not the Lions GM because with you very strict code of conduct, releasing players with no warnings or 2nd chances, you'd have the Lions in the basement...oh wait, they already are in last place and without your help.

I don't think it's a "strict" code of conduct at all. I said I believed in second chances. Read my earlier post. Just elsewhere. Look, here's a guy...a visible, comparatively high-profile person on a sports team that looks to this community for support and presumably values a relationship of high goodwill with that community....who are running an anti-violence campaign and who has, apparently, seen fit to depart from the standards of civilized society. The good ol' days of boys will be boys is over. And rightly so.

Ok, I think I got it: you don't believe in the Lions giving second chances. I do.

In Westerman's case you may get your wish. It turns out he punched a bouncer which likely means he won't be able to claim that he was provoked and also I've never heard of a sober person punching a bouncer. LU wrote about it in the 5th Quarter and quotes Coach Benny as saying that we will support him as best we can and the decision as to whether he plays on Friday will be made after they find out the results of his court appearance which was held today. I tried to find he article again to provide a link but I couldn't find it, such are my computer skills.