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Hambone
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Ravi wrote:Interesting perspective from Hambone and B.C.Fan. If we take ticket prices out of the equation, how can one explain that season tickets are at only 15k in a Grey Cup-hosting year? Ackles did get season ticket sales up to 24k a few years ago in the old B.C. Place. What happened to those 9k season ticket holders? Did they all become Whitecaps' season ticket holders instead? Could those 9k all have HDTV now and watch the games on there? What is (are) the reason(s) for a fairly significant attendance decline in B.C.?
I honestly don't know Ravi. No doubt the Whitecaps thing has impacted the Lions but I can't imagine it being to that extent. Maybe it cost them 1000 STs but I doubt any more. Perhaps the temporary relocation to Empire forced some to drop their season tickets at the time due to various factors brought on by the location with not all coming back on board later. Again whatever impact that was would be marginal. Maybe it's the unique circumstances of two of Ackles eras that cause us to mistakenly interpret them as the norm with times like now being the aberration. Perhaps it's the opposite. For the most part BC attendance has followed the ebbs and flows of the club's record.

In BC's first 8 years under Ackles (75-82) attendance bounced up and down like a yo-yo with 1977 (Year 1 under Rapp) and 1981 being the high points not surprisingly as they were the only double digit win seasons for BC between their 1964 Grey Cup championship and their move into BC Place. All things Lions were wonderful again with the first 4 years in BCP showing averages over 42000. 1986's 46638 is the clubs all-time best year, and Ackles last as GM I believe. After the usual new stadium honeymoon obviously augmented by the first consistently competitive BC squad in 2 decades the slide started.

It was a steady slide pretty much from 1987 through to 1996 with the one wonderful full season of Doug Flutie in 1991 where attendance climbed back up over 40K for the first time since 1986. One year later Flutie was in Calgary and attendance dropped a whopping 40% or 15K/game. Smooth move Pez. Attendance again yo-yoed between 1997 and Ackles return in 2002. Even then it dropped 4300 in his first year versus 2001 which again isn't surprising. No way he was going to turn that ship around in the first year. The TSN turning point was when he hired Buono with Wally in turn landing Dickenson. No doubt Bob was re-connecting with things in the community. However like the good Rapp years, the Matthews era and the magical Flutie year the on-field product was driving the marketing bus as much as marketing strategy. After a 3 year climb after Buono's arrival attendance had more or less plateaued and bounced up and down a bit. 2012 & 2013 were both better than the first 3 years of Bob's final era. So far this year is down 3300 on last year's average but only around 1500 down from the first 3 games of 2013. The best year under Ackles was sadly 2008 the same year he passed. It was also coming off the Lions best regular season in franchise history. The following year 2009 would be the start of back to back 8-10-0 seasons, coincidentally the first losing seasons since Bob had returned. Through the 2002-08 years the Ackles influence was felt they rose from 18507 in Yr 1 to 34083 in 2008. Overall average was 28457 which was 147 more than last season's average.
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sj-roc wrote:We've also seen a scaling back in perks for STHs. In the Ackles II era there were calendars, a copy of his book, framed team photos. This is no longer the case and these perks have been discontinued while at the same time we're being asked to dig deeper into our wallets. You can't help but feel you're not as appreciated as much as a paying customer, especially if you were one of the new fans who came on board during that time.
Personally I'm not all that interested in bling that comes with the tickets. It's nice and all but doesn't sway my ticket buying decision one iota.

As an aside I was talking to long-time Eskimo ST holder Brian "Eskinator" Edwards in early June. He happened to be over in Shawnigan Lake visiting Great White North (relocated Eskimo fan) who bought Lions season tickets this year. Eskinator was very impressed with the ST package GWN received from the Lions and thought the container itself was a cool collectible. He said he wished the Eskimos would do something like that. Sounds like there you get the tickets in an envelope and that's about it, maybe a sticker or two.
Last edited by Hambone on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SammyGreene
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Hambone wrote: I honestly don't know Ravi. No doubt the Whitecaps thing has impacted the Lions but I can't imagine it being to that extent. Maybe it cost them 1000 STs but I doubt any more. Perhaps the temporary relocation to Empire forced some to drop their season tickets at the time due to various factors brought on by the location with not all coming back on board later. Again whatever impact that was would be marginal. Maybe it's the unique circumstances of two of Ackles eras that cause us to mistakenly interpret them as the norm with times like now being the aberration. Perhaps it's the opposite. For the most part BC attendance has followed the ebbs and flows of the club's record.

In BC's first 8 years under Ackles (75-82) attendance bounced up and down like a yo-yo with 1977 (Year 1 under Rapp) and 1981 being the high points not surprisingly as they were the only double digit win seasons for BC between their 1964 Grey Cup championship and their move into BC Place. All things Lions were wonderful again with the first 4 years in BCP showing averages over 42000. 1986's 46638 is the clubs all-time best year, and Ackles last as GM I believe. After the usual new stadium honeymoon obviously augmented by the first consistently competitive BC squad in 2 decades the slide started.

It was a steady slide pretty much from 1987 through to 1996 with the one wonderful full season of Doug Flutie in 1991 where attendance climbed back up over 40K for the first time since 1986. One year later Flutie was in Calgary and attendance dropped a whopping 40% or 15K/game. Smooth move Pez. Attendance again yo-yoed between 1997 and Ackles return in 2002. Even then it dropped 4300 in his first year versus 2001 which again isn't surprising. No way he was going to turn that ship around in the first year. The TSN turning point was when he hired Buono with Wally in turn landing Dickenson. No doubt Bob was re-connecting with things in the community. However like the good Rapp years, the Matthews era and the magical Flutie year the on-field product was driving the marketing bus as much as marketing strategy. After a 3 year climb after Buono's arrival attendance had more or less plateaued and bounced up and down a bit. 2012 & 2013 were both better than the first 3 years of Bob's final era. So far this year is down 3300 on last year's average but only around 1500 down from the first 3 games of 2013. The best year under Ackles was sadly 2008 the same year he passed. It was also coming off the Lions best regular season in franchise history. The following year 2009 would be the start of back to back 8-10-0 seasons, coincidentally the first losing seasons since Bob had returned. Through the 2002-08 years the Ackles influence was felt they rose from 18507 in Yr 1 to 34083 in 2008. Overall average was 28457 which was 147 more than last season's average.
Terrific analogy Hambone. I remember thinking back in 2008 the 34,000 average would be the plateau mark for the Lions' resurgence in this market. Taking the next step to the magicial 40,000 seemed nearly impossible no matter what team was in town or how big the game was.

As terrific as attendance was I still thought the numbers were vulnerable long term, especially after seeing what happened in the late 80s. The Lions were a solid No. 2 in town behind the Canucks thanks to outstanding management with Ackles, an excellent coach and a stable star talent that had formed the core of this team. It couldn't be any better yet it wasn't like Lions discussion had increased dramatically on talk radio. It was still a distant, distant second to Canucks/NHL talk the same way it is today. I often wondered where were those 24,000 season ticket holders when it was call after call about who should centre the Canucks third line or whatever.
That said, I was hoping there would be a windfall in attendance from the renovated stadium for 1 or 2 years that clearly didn't materialize.
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notahomer wrote:I still HAVE NOT invested in the HI-DEF channels (not home often enough). However, if the season tickets get too pricey, the first thing I'd do is get a reciever and get a home sports package. Watch those Lions game on TV at home. The booze and food is better and cheaper TOO! That being said, I still would prefer to see the games in person. I have a $$$ mark where I'm gonna say "THATS IT, I'm watching at home". Not there yet (and reluctant to say where in case they try to get there fast :cool: ) but they'll get there.........
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Hambone wrote:
sj-roc wrote:We've also seen a scaling back in perks for STHs. In the Ackles II era there were calendars, a copy of his book, framed team photos. This is no longer the case and these perks have been discontinued while at the same time we're being asked to dig deeper into our wallets. You can't help but feel you're not as appreciated as much as a paying customer, especially if you were one of the new fans who came on board during that time.
Personally I'm not all that interested in bling that comes with the tickets. It's nice and all but doesn't sway my ticket buying decision one iota.

As an aside I was talking to long-time Eskimo ST holder Brian "Eskinator" Edwards in early June. He happened to be over in Shawnigan Lake visiting Great White North (relocated Eskimo fan) who bought Lions season tickets this year. Eskinator was very impressed with the ST package GWN received from the Lions and thought the container itself was a cool collectible. He said he wished the Eskimos would do something like that. Sounds like there you get the tickets in an envelope and that's about it, maybe a sticker or two.
Oh, I agree with you on the ST swag; they don't matter to me, either. I'm just thinking of people who were new STHs in those A2 years. For those folks, getting swag like books and framed team photos was the norm. I could understand people in that group being disappointed when those gifts stopped flowing at the same time as prices were being jacked up. It's kind of like seeing your buddy with a fully loaded brand new car and then when you go to the dealer the next week looking for the same, they tell you it costs an extra few grand and there's no sunroof or AC.

As for the Eskimos, I guess their attendance has been so good for so long they hardly bother with such measures. I'm not that high on this year's cylinder container myself but I suppose you could let your kids use it as a piggy bank if you cut a slot in the plastic lid. I preferred last year's gift box; it's about the right size for storing receipts until tax season rolls around.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Hambone wrote:
notahomer wrote:I still HAVE NOT invested in the HI-DEF channels (not home often enough). However, if the season tickets get too pricey, the first thing I'd do is get a reciever and get a home sports package. Watch those Lions game on TV at home. The booze and food is better and cheaper TOO! That being said, I still would prefer to see the games in person. I have a $$$ mark where I'm gonna say "THATS IT, I'm watching at home". Not there yet (and reluctant to say where in case they try to get there fast :cool: ) but they'll get there.........
One day the tubes are gonna wear out in that old Zenith TV and you'll have no choice but to upgrade. :wink:
Cable comes free with the rent in the apartment building.... Sports are the main thing I watch and due to work, not much else gets watched.

That being said, I DO NOT need to be sold on the benefits of Flatscreens :cool: I'm on my second flatscreen. Its an L.E.D. and its thinner than some of the picture frames I have hanging!!! I really should just bite the bullet and get the HI-def channels. I have to admit they look good when I am over at a friends place catching a game......
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sj-roc wrote:Oh, I agree with you on the ST swag; they don't matter to me, either. I'm just thinking of people who were new STHs in those A2 years. For those folks, getting swag like books and framed team photos was the norm. I could understand people in that group being disappointed when those gifts stopped flowing at the same time as prices were being jacked up. It's kind of like seeing your buddy with a fully loaded brand new car and then when you go to the dealer the next week looking for the same, they tell you it costs an extra few grand and there's no sunroof or AC.

As for the Eskimos, I guess their attendance has been so good for so long they hardly bother with such measures. I'm not that high on this year's cylinder container myself but I suppose you could let your kids use it as a piggy bank if you cut a slot in the plastic lid. I preferred last year's gift box; it's about the right size for storing receipts until tax season rolls around.
Don't get me wrong. I'm the sort who does truly appreciate the gesture caused by anything tossed in along with the tickets. I do have trouble however with folks who come to expect swag like it's a right as opposed to a privilege. I've only recently come back on board as a ST holder in 2011 after a hiatus of about a dozen years. I had STs from around 1981 through 1999 so can't speak much for what was the norm from 2000 until 2011. I don't recall much extra being included with the tickets back then other than a couple of decals and maybe a pin or magnetic schedule. The book was indeed very special. A buddy in PG was gracious enough to give me his copy. As author Bob probably arranged for the club to buy them at cost from the printer. If there was a framed pic did that perhaps coincide with a landmark season in the club's history like the 50th anniversary?

On another note though kudos to the Lions for handing out the Geroy commemorative posters as fans were exiting the game Friday as opposed to entering. There's nothing worse than getting something like that before a game then somehow trying to keep it in pristine condition for the next 4 hours or more until one gets back to their vehicle, home or hotel room.
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Hambone wrote:.....On another note though kudos to the Lions for handing out the Geroy commemorative posters as fans were exiting the game Friday as opposed to entering. There's nothing worse than getting something like that before a game then somehow trying to keep it in pristine condition for the next 4 hours or more until one gets back to their vehicle, home or hotel room.
I was there in the late 80's when paper airplane contests were popular. You threw your paper airplane and if it landed in an automobile, you won the car, IIRC.....

Then people were throwing planes all throughout the game even though the contest was suppossed to be a half-time thing, I think.... It was counter-intuitive to see this 'teddybeartoss' thing get mo, at hockey games. At least it seems to be done safely and I'm hoping nobody disrupts the game later.....

Definately trying to keep a collectible in pristine condition for four hours is something I have had to do. In fact, someone had me buy them a Felion calendar Friday. Its small enough I was able to stuff it in the cupholder flat upagainst the seat in front of me.
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Hambone wrote:
sj-roc wrote:Oh, I agree with you on the ST swag; they don't matter to me, either. I'm just thinking of people who were new STHs in those A2 years. For those folks, getting swag like books and framed team photos was the norm. I could understand people in that group being disappointed when those gifts stopped flowing at the same time as prices were being jacked up. It's kind of like seeing your buddy with a fully loaded brand new car and then when you go to the dealer the next week looking for the same, they tell you it costs an extra few grand and there's no sunroof or AC.

As for the Eskimos, I guess their attendance has been so good for so long they hardly bother with such measures. I'm not that high on this year's cylinder container myself but I suppose you could let your kids use it as a piggy bank if you cut a slot in the plastic lid. I preferred last year's gift box; it's about the right size for storing receipts until tax season rolls around.
Don't get me wrong. I'm the sort who does truly appreciate the gesture caused by anything tossed in along with the tickets. I do have trouble however with folks who come to expect swag like it's a right as opposed to a privilege. I've only recently come back on board as a ST holder in 2011 after a hiatus of about a dozen years. I had STs from around 1981 through 1999 so can't speak much for what was the norm from 2000 until 2011. I don't recall much extra being included with the tickets back then other than a couple of decals and maybe a pin or magnetic schedule. The book was indeed very special. A buddy in PG was gracious enough to give me his copy. As author Bob probably arranged for the club to buy them at cost from the printer. If there was a framed pic did that perhaps coincide with a landmark season in the club's history like the 50th anniversary?

On another note though kudos to the Lions for handing out the Geroy commemorative posters as fans were exiting the game Friday as opposed to entering. There's nothing worse than getting something like that before a game then somehow trying to keep it in pristine condition for the next 4 hours or more until one gets back to their vehicle, home or hotel room.
As far as fan expectation on swag I think it's relative to precedent. If you became a STH in that window where fancy swag was the norm then I think this would shape your expectations going forward. On the other hand if you'd already been on board for ages you'd think, oh this is cool, and then when it ended you'd probably think, well that was nice while it lasted. It's like parents spoiling their kids from an early age instead of teaching them that things in life aren't always going to go their way.

The framed (behind glass) photo was of the 2004 team with WB's autograph, nothing special as a year marking a milestone (all the 50th anniversary stuff was in 2003) or a championship. I think it was taken around the end of the 2004 season and included in the 2005 ST package as opposed to 2004. I still have mine with the original protective plastic wrapped around the frame. There were also team photos (unframed) for 2006 and 2007 although I don't recall if these had a one-year lag like the 2004 photo (probably did; you'd have to know who the mid-season cuts and roster additions were to be sure about it). Oddly neither of these photos included the Grey Cup won in 2006 but who knows what the logistics are to make that work and/or whether the photo was taken before the playoffs even started.

I agree that withholding the Geroy poster until post-game was the right move although I wonder if some fans were so put off by the team's poor effort that they simply wanted to just GTFO and forgot to take one. I noticed many folks ahead of me never bothered as they filed out and even I almost did likewise. Approaching the exit, I had to think for a moment before realising, hey, this is the poster handout.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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notahomer wrote:Definately trying to keep a collectible in pristine condition for four hours is something I have had to do. In fact, someone had me buy them a Felion calendar Friday. Its small enough I was able to stuff it in the cupholder flat upagainst the seat in front of me.
I always get that same feeling at Grey Cup. Whichever event you're partying at there's always a rotation of the various cheer teams coming through to do a couple of dances. Then they mingle through the crowd flogging their calendars. I always feel bad for turning them down but the last thing I want is to have something other than a beer to pack around for the next several hours.
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SammyGreene wrote:
Hambone wrote: I honestly don't know Ravi. No doubt the Whitecaps thing has impacted the Lions but I can't imagine it being to that extent. Maybe it cost them 1000 STs but I doubt any more. Perhaps the temporary relocation to Empire forced some to drop their season tickets at the time due to various factors brought on by the location with not all coming back on board later. Again whatever impact that was would be marginal. Maybe it's the unique circumstances of two of Ackles eras that cause us to mistakenly interpret them as the norm with times like now being the aberration. Perhaps it's the opposite. For the most part BC attendance has followed the ebbs and flows of the club's record.

In BC's first 8 years under Ackles (75-82) attendance bounced up and down like a yo-yo with 1977 (Year 1 under Rapp) and 1981 being the high points not surprisingly as they were the only double digit win seasons for BC between their 1964 Grey Cup championship and their move into BC Place. All things Lions were wonderful again with the first 4 years in BCP showing averages over 42000. 1986's 46638 is the clubs all-time best year, and Ackles last as GM I believe. After the usual new stadium honeymoon obviously augmented by the first consistently competitive BC squad in 2 decades the slide started.

It was a steady slide pretty much from 1987 through to 1996 with the one wonderful full season of Doug Flutie in 1991 where attendance climbed back up over 40K for the first time since 1986. One year later Flutie was in Calgary and attendance dropped a whopping 40% or 15K/game. Smooth move Pez. Attendance again yo-yoed between 1997 and Ackles return in 2002. Even then it dropped 4300 in his first year versus 2001 which again isn't surprising. No way he was going to turn that ship around in the first year. The TSN turning point was when he hired Buono with Wally in turn landing Dickenson. No doubt Bob was re-connecting with things in the community. However like the good Rapp years, the Matthews era and the magical Flutie year the on-field product was driving the marketing bus as much as marketing strategy. After a 3 year climb after Buono's arrival attendance had more or less plateaued and bounced up and down a bit. 2012 & 2013 were both better than the first 3 years of Bob's final era. So far this year is down 3300 on last year's average but only around 1500 down from the first 3 games of 2013. The best year under Ackles was sadly 2008 the same year he passed. It was also coming off the Lions best regular season in franchise history. The following year 2009 would be the start of back to back 8-10-0 seasons, coincidentally the first losing seasons since Bob had returned. Through the 2002-08 years the Ackles influence was felt they rose from 18507 in Yr 1 to 34083 in 2008. Overall average was 28457 which was 147 more than last season's average.
Terrific analogy Hambone. I remember thinking back in 2008 the 34,000 average would be the plateau mark for the Lions' resurgence in this market. Taking the next step to the magicial 40,000 seemed nearly impossible no matter what team was in town or how big the game was.

As terrific as attendance was I still thought the numbers were vulnerable long term, especially after seeing what happened in the late 80s. The Lions were a solid No. 2 in town behind the Canucks thanks to outstanding management with Ackles, an excellent coach and a stable star talent that had formed the core of this team. It couldn't be any better yet it wasn't like Lions discussion had increased dramatically on talk radio. It was still a distant, distant second to Canucks/NHL talk the same way it is today. I often wondered where were those 24,000 season ticket holders when it was call after call about who should centre the Canucks third line or whatever.
That said, I was hoping there would be a windfall in attendance from the renovated stadium for 1 or 2 years that clearly didn't materialize.
Can't compare 2008 with today. Bob was totally for blackouts. You had to buy tickets to see the games. Now with HD TV the games are free.
I fully support only selling the lower bowl ~26,000
- lions support historically is 25k in summer and 30k in fall (give or take some up and down years)
- make the atmosphere far better having everyone stuffed in, with the games for free you are selling to two markets now i) causal fan who watches on tv and ii) diehards and those than want to have a great live experience worth $80
- more season tickets holders i) to ensure a seat for games ii) a good resale market if they need to sell them
- interest level is higher -- better having 300,000 vancouverites watching than 30,000. These people still support the team through higher TV money down the road, potential ticket holders in the future, and more apparel sales. This is what the canucks are so good at -- creating new fans all the time through exposure of all games on tv

I have no problem paying $5-10 more for games if they reduce capacity, as long as there is a good secondary market if i need to sell my tickets for some reason and its a better live experience with everyone stuffed into the lower bowl going nuts.
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Qman wrote:Can't compare 2008 with today. Bob was totally for blackouts. You had to buy tickets to see the games. Now with HD TV the games are free.
I fully support only selling the lower bowl ~26,000
- lions support historically is 25k in summer and 30k in fall (give or take some up and down years)
- make the atmosphere far better having everyone stuffed in, with the games for free you are selling to two markets now i) causal fan who watches on tv and ii) diehards and those than want to have a great live experience worth $80
- more season tickets holders i) to ensure a seat for games ii) a good resale market if they need to sell them
- interest level is higher -- better having 300,000 vancouverites watching than 30,000. These people still support the team through higher TV money down the road, potential ticket holders in the future, and more apparel sales. This is what the canucks are so good at -- creating new fans all the time through exposure of all games on tv

I have no problem paying $5-10 more for games if they reduce capacity, as long as there is a good secondary market if i need to sell my tickets for some reason and its a better live experience with everyone stuffed into the lower bowl going nuts.
I think where the Lions have problems with that idea is they're right at that threshold. I'm not sure what the lower bowl maxes out at capacity wise. I had been using 28000 and applying that to 2012 I found that 8 or 9 home games broke the 28000 point meaning approximately 24000 fans would've been turned away if it was lower bowl only. If capacity is only 26000 then we're talking another 18000 being turned away for a total of 42000. That would be like losing 1.6 home dates. Last year 2 of 9 games were over 28000 with a total of 12900 in excess of such a capacity. 7 of 9 were 26000+ with close to 24000 being the excess crowd over 26000 capacity. When Ackles closed the upper bowl there were still several thousand empty seats in the lower bowl. Now we're usually talking a few hundred to maybe 2000 if capacity really is as high as 28000. If crowds start dipping into the low 20K range then they may have to think about that route. But as long as sales remain close to or over LB capacity I can't see them doing it.
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Thats the whole point.
Demand exceeds capacity. Thats when you have people screaming to get season tickets, waitlists, strong resale market, no freebies or discount tickets. The who point is to prevent attendance falling into low 20s because of poor game day experience when they can get it at home for free.

Before the TV big TV deal DS said break even was 23k-ish, now is probably 16k-ish. They are still making money.
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Hambone wrote:I'm not sure what the lower bowl maxes out at capacity wise. I had been using 28000 and applying that to 2012 I found that 8 or 9 home games broke the 28000 point meaning approximately 24000 fans would've been turned away if it was lower bowl only. If capacity is only 26000 then we're talking another 18000 being turned away for a total of 42000. That would be like losing 1.6 home dates. Last year 2 of 9 games were over 28000 with a total of 12900 in excess of such a capacity. 7 of 9 were 26000+ with close to 24000 being the excess crowd over 26000 capacity. When Ackles closed the upper bowl there were still several thousand empty seats in the lower bowl. Now we're usually talking a few hundred to maybe 2000 if capacity really is as high as 28000. If crowds start dipping into the low 20K range then they may have to think about that route. But as long as sales remain close to or over LB capacity I can't see them doing it.
In 2003, during which only the lower bowl was open, the season finale was billed as a lower bowl sellout of 29,706. Total capacity at the time was something like 59,500 so that means pretty much a dead even split on the upper/lower bowl numbers. When the new larger seats came in for 2011, capacity was reduced to 54,313 if the attendance figure of that year's GC is to be believed as a sellout. Assuming the level split remains roughly equal, this sets the current lower bowl capacity at around 27,150*.

From a practical POV and as an aside, the capacity is perhaps several hundred lower than this because so many isolated singles often remain unsold as a tough sell until they're all that's left. With about 50 sections in the lower bowl (I think it's 46 to be exact), if you have about 8-12 singles per section, you're talking upwards of 500 tough sell/unsold seats, equivalent to an entire section. Many of these are in high rent sideline areas so it adds up to a lot of lost revenue.

I've been on ticketmaster looking at single game NFL tickets and I've seen a couple of teams (perhaps all?) have policies forbidding any sale that creates an isolated single unless there is no other way to buy the desired number of tickets (perhaps not even in that case). I suppose the NFL has deeper resources to enforce this but looking at it as a business issue, I think the Lions should also be doing more to reduce this but I wouldn't have any idea what exactly. I'm sure they're well aware of it and would like to act on it.

*This may or not include the luxury suite seating, but that's another story. I suppose each suite has a capacity, perhaps governed by fire safety regulations (let's say 15) and if the suite is rented out, then that 15 capacity figure is the one used for game attendance purposes regardless of how many actual bodies occupy it for the game.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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JohnHenry
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The problem with cramming 27,000 or 29,000 in the lower bowl is that nearly 10,000 of those fans will be sitting in the endzones. The idea was to transfer some of those endzone fans to the upper deck. It makes little sense to pack fans into the endzone's while prime sections in the upper deck (55-yd line) are sitting empty. The problem was they couldn't price the upper deck competitively enough, so as not to annoy the bread-n'-butter season ticket holders in the lower bowl (who are paying a good dollar for their tickets.)

It might look prettier to drop the marshmallow drapes off the upper deck creating a cozy lower bowl, but that might not be practical for the Lions.

I'd like to see the Lions drop ticket prices across the board. They would probably make less money but draw more fans. In the long run it's holding onto your fans and attracting new ones will be crucial for keeping the Lions successful! :roar:
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