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Toppy Vann
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dupsdell1 wrote:Bob Ackles, in The Water Boy, wrote:
I didn't know how bad things really were in Vancouver when I arrived [in 2002]. I'm not talking about the finances; I'm talking about acceptance in the community. There's no rocket science to the football end of this business. There really isn't. Anyone can win at any time; anyone can lose at any time. Having the right head coach, having the right quarterback, avoiding injuries — that's all it takes. That's the easier part of it.

The tougher part is getting people in the seats. That's incredibly important when you are a gate-driven business like the CFL and can't rely on the kind of television revenues that support the NFL. In Vancouver, when I arrived back, nobody cared. A sea of change had happened since I left in 1986. We had 30,000 season-ticket holders back then. We were averaging 45,000-plus fans a game. [sj-roc note: much of this off-field success is commonly regarded in some corners, such as this board, as due to the novelty of BCP but given Ackles' success in his second go-round, it's fair to imagine that the subsequent attrition after this factor eroded would not have been so precipitous had he never left.] We were winning. It was really a high. Sitting in the stadium the first game back in 2002, attendance was 12,000 [sj-roc note: it was reported as 15,796 but 12k might well have been a better read on the true turnstile count.], although we would average out at about 18,500. It was a nightmare. I knew turning around an apathetic city and community would be tough. ...

Football teams, or any sports franchise, are not like manufacturing companies feeding a specific need or a business with a clearly defined market. They require the alignment of a greater number of elements to produce success. You have to understand the pulse of the community, the pulse of fans, the pulse of the team and understand what will make the mix come together and gel.



Totally Agree with the above statement From the late Great Bob Ackles, Some how or another Skulski does not seem to get it.

Is there any one from here that is going to phone in next when the GM'S are on 1040 ?

This has to be brought up , because what is happening is not working. But I bet you he thinks it is.
You have to segment the market and also think of where those folks live - so many downtowners and Vancouverites so close to the stadium and ethnic communities.

In Hong Kong you see dozens of soccer shirts and when the visiting top teams come here the crowds fill up with thousands in their fav team jerseys. It's called marketing.

Wally a while back when asked about ethnic players said he'd never do that for ethnicity sake but let me tell you the Eng. Premier League Clubs certainly grab a top player and go global. South Korean player let go to another club as his top talent is sagging a bit for them and what do you know they get a top Japanese player. Of course they bring their teams to this region every year.

Man City was here last summer and I was invited to meet their new President and Chief Commercial Officer - an American marketing guru who was helping us meet folks to connect with in the room for our business. Man City teamed with Man. Business School to do the free night for business leaders and alumni and they spared no expense in food and alcohol.

The Lions aren't likely to come to Hong Kong to market but there are communities they need to market to right in Vancouver who live close as well as go ethnic with the appeal. These other teams don't take an ethnic guy who can't play but they aren't stupid either and it sure helps their brand and sales to have these guys featured. NBA China and now the NFL heading there and running camps in Beijing etc. Huge market as more folks move to better jobs in China that 1.3 billion population looks good to them. But Lions can do more at home.
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B.C.FAN
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I'll be a contrarian on the ticket-pricing debate. I've maintained for years that the price of Lions' tickets is a bargain. The Lions advertise season tickets starting at less than $300. Mine cost $305.75, including taxes and fees. That's less than $31 per game. I know the same seats cost $44 including taxes and Ticketmaster fees on a single-game basis, but the Lions in recent years have introduced the bargain-priced family zone and gridiron deck with all-in prices of $30 a ticket, including taxes, fees, food and beverages. That's a steal, and there's been lots seats available in those sections this year for anyone who is price-sensitive.

The Lions' ticket pricing is in line with that of other CFL teams, based on comparisons I've seen in past years. It's also a bargain compared to other pro leagues. I went to a Major League Baseball game a few weeks ago and bought the cheapest tickets available for $50 each. There were 35,000 people at the game, and most paid a lot more than that. I paid $125 a ticket for decent but not great seats at the last NBA game I attended. I don't buy NHL tickets but I believe it's considerably cheaper for a casual fan to attend a Lions' game than a Canucks' game.

I once cancelled my Lions' season tickets when the price of my sideline red seat went up from $4.50 to $5.50 in the early 1970s. I'm still price-sensitive, which is one reason I prefer to sit in cheaper seats, but I don't have any complaints about the cost of attending a Lions' game these days.
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Toppy Vann
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B.C.FAN wrote:I'll be a contrarian on the ticket-pricing debate. I've maintained for years that the price of Lions' tickets is a bargain. The Lions advertise season tickets starting at less than $300. Mine cost $305.75, including taxes and fees. That's less than $31 per game. I know the same seats cost $44 including taxes and Ticketmaster fees on a single-game basis, but the Lions in recent years have introduced the bargain-priced family zone and gridiron deck with all-in prices of $30 a ticket, including taxes, fees, food and beverages. That's a steal, and there's been lots seats available in those sections this year for anyone who is price-sensitive.

The Lions' ticket pricing is in line with that of other CFL teams, based on comparisons I've seen in past years. It's also a bargain compared to other pro leagues. I went to a Major League Baseball game a few weeks ago and bought the cheapest tickets available for $50 each. There were 35,000 people at the game, and most paid a lot more than that. I paid $125 a ticket for decent but not great seats at the last NBA game I attended. I don't buy NHL tickets but I believe it's considerably cheaper for a casual fan to attend a Lions' game than a Canucks' game.

I once cancelled my Lions' season tickets when the price of my sideline red seat went up from $4.50 to $5.50 in the early 1970s. I'm still price-sensitive, which is one reason I prefer to sit in cheaper seats, but I don't have any complaints about the cost of attending a Lions' game these days.
I think though that President Skulsky is a firm believer in cranking that up and he'd like (speculation on my part) to keep the seating limited without walkups and get more revenue per seat.

This does three things:
1. Make it look full as it will be full and force fans to buy seasons tickets a
2. Lower their stadium costs for staff etc. This is what I think the Whitecaps have done and this leaves out a large potential walk up crowd. This takes out a bad guess where if the Lions guess wrong they've still had to bring in extra staff for food, security, etc that cost the Lions money I suspect. I don't know this for sure.
3. Lowers their marketing costs as they have fewer seats to fill and TV is booming for them.

Maybe if they do the seasons tickets and other packages - maybe they cut out a sales agency too meaning more money - not sure of that either.

I just speculate based on some public statements of Skulsky and what I think I read about the Whitecaps thinking. Also, Skulsky was publishing income levels for their fan base that seemed astronomical to me when they came up. Numbers forgotten.

Look at the hockey seat costs as a worst case scenario.
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dupsdell1
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I once had season tickets also , but when they went from $250.00 a ticket to $350.00 I said no ,, I was sitting 3 rows from the 5 yard line. again that was back after the 2010 season at empire.
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If I was Wally i would go out of my way to find Asian-American (or Cdn) players that can play. It is really no different than trying to find players from BC because they are more likely to re-sign and often for less $ so they can stay close to friends and family.

Having a very large and mostly financially well off Asian population in the lower mainland is an advantage that the other western teams do not have and the Lions should go out of their way to woo this ethnic fan base and Asian-American football players is the best way to do it.
TheLionKing
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DanoT wrote:If I was Wally i would go out of my way to find Asian-American (or Cdn) players that can play. It is really no different than trying to find players from BC because they are more likely to re-sign and often for less $ so they can stay close to friends and family.

Having a very large and mostly financially well off Asian population in the lower mainland is an advantage that the other western teams do not have and the Lions should go out of their way to woo this ethnic fan base and Asian-American football players is the best way to do it.
Lions have a Chinese Canadian on the roster - Casey Chin
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SammyGreene
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David wrote:My perception? The casuals or part-timers have already fled (and if banging the "Geroy Simon Night" drum as much as the club did this week doesn't bring them back, nothing will). This is likely the group for whom making the effort to attend at the prices charged does not equate to the satisfaction from watching on high def at home. The 25K or so we're left with seem to be the same dedicated group each game. Most people attending wear Lions swag, make a decent amount of noise for that stadium configuration, and seem to have a reasonably good time (plus or minus the action on the field in front of them).

The stadium renovation, while necessary, has made almost NO difference IMHO, and a small roof opening - while certainly making one more comfortable when open with air now circulating - has not given fans the illusion that they're really outdoors, so daytime games in the summer are mostly a bad idea.


DH :cool:
Once again David you have your finger is on the pulse of the Lions' fan base. The alarm bells should have been going off back in 2011 when the club hedged everything on the stadium renovations and raised ticket prices according across the board and even eliminated some sections (Like how the lower gold I used to sit in at the 25 yard line became platinum).
Over 50,000 showed up for the "event" of the stadium re-opening yet a key divisional game against Calgary drew only 30,000 a week later with the Lions steamrolling at the time. Skulsky was on record in training camp the following season saying they expected 40,000 for the 2012 season opener for the Grey Cup rematch with Winnipeg. Instead the game drew 29,000 which also reflected season ticket expectations not being realized.
Since then the club has adapted a different business model, as others have pointed out here, that has maximized revenue from their hardcore fans (higher ticket prices, merchandise and road trips) that has resulted in making a profit the last 2 seasons drawing under 30,000 a game. At the same time, the casual fan will maybe go to a couple of games but rather watch at home on the HDTV than shell out $44 (all in) for end zone seats or even purchase the discounted seats up top on a regular basis.
I will give Skulsky credit that the club's bottom line remains healthy and that's his job. But the season ticket base is now down to around 15,000 and can't afford to slip anymore while the smaller crowds gives the perception less people care or are interested in the Lions.

Look at the Whitecaps. I laugh at how they regularly announce "sold out" crowds with their 21,000 configuration in a 54,000 seat stadium. This is year three for them in B.C. Place and they are still reluctant to open the remaining 6,000 seats in the lower bowl in fear they will sit unsold and their perception of a game being a "hot ticket" takes a hit.

No matter how the Lions will sugar coat it including "this is what the fans want," closing the upper deck would be a step back for the organization. I'm sure Mr. Ackles would be looking down and shaking his head.
Blue In BC
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Lions are pricing themselves out of the market. Everyone now has large HD TV's to watch compared to just a few short seasons ago.

It's getting harder to justify ticket prices for many folks I suspect.
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Blue In BC wrote:Lions are pricing themselves out of the market. Everyone now has large HD TV's to watch compared to just a few short seasons ago.

It's getting harder to justify ticket prices for many folks I suspect.
That's the main reason I don't attend much anymore. Ferry and ticket prices.
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B.C.FAN wrote:I'll be a contrarian on the ticket-pricing debate. I've maintained for years that the price of Lions' tickets is a bargain. The Lions advertise season tickets starting at less than $300. Mine cost $305.75, including taxes and fees. That's less than $31 per game. I know the same seats cost $44 including taxes and Ticketmaster fees on a single-game basis, but the Lions in recent years have introduced the bargain-priced family zone and gridiron deck with all-in prices of $30 a ticket, including taxes, fees, food and beverages. That's a steal, and there's been lots seats available in those sections this year for anyone who is price-sensitive.

The Lions' ticket pricing is in line with that of other CFL teams, based on comparisons I've seen in past years. It's also a bargain compared to other pro leagues. I went to a Major League Baseball game a few weeks ago and bought the cheapest tickets available for $50 each. There were 35,000 people at the game, and most paid a lot more than that. I paid $125 a ticket for decent but not great seats at the last NBA game I attended. I don't buy NHL tickets but I believe it's considerably cheaper for a casual fan to attend a Lions' game than a Canucks' game.

I once cancelled my Lions' season tickets when the price of my sideline red seat went up from $4.50 to $5.50 in the early 1970s. I'm still price-sensitive, which is one reason I prefer to sit in cheaper seats, but I don't have any complaints about the cost of attending a Lions' game these days.
I'm with you on that yet it seems to many that the ticket pricing is the beginning and end of the term "marketing". The Lions offer 5 different price breaks plus the Family Zone and Gridiron deck which amount to roughly $22 for the ticket portion, half the price of an end zone seat. In addition to full season tickets they also offer 10 game flex packs and 3 game packs all providing a savings off the single game price. Touchdown End Zone seats are effectively 50% of the cost of the virtually sold out Coaches Sideline seats. I wonder how many people who complain about how tough it is to come up with $40 for one of those end zone seats has no problem coming up with another $25 for a couple of beer and a dog once they are inside. Folks seem to think the end zone seats are overpriced yet the Whitecaps sell the same end zone seat only $4 cheaper and approximately 62% of their sideline seat prices. To discount them any further from the half value of sideline seats can cause a ripple effect as it erodes the value of the other price points. Much of the gain in sales for the TDEZ seats could come at the expense of lost sales in higher priced sections.

As much as folks like to wax poetically about the wonderful things Bob Ackles did I have a hard time seeing where the current regime is doing anything much differently. They have a price structure that is mostly on par with the rest of the league. It seems to me that contrary to popular belief in some circles they have listened and have acted on things. One of the difficult things with making changes or trying different things is that you really don't know if the market will embrace the changes until well into the season. A couple of years ago folks grumbled about upper deck pricing being the same from bottom to top. Now there are 3 pricing levels with only the bottom 11 rows selling at lower bowl pricing. They've created more options for the price sensitive fan with family considerations. Their efforts in the community have not regressed whatsoever. They remain just as active in the community as they were under Ackles if not more involved in more programs. I'm really not sure how much more than can do beyond giving tickets away for next to nothing. Quite frankly I think if they cut prices in half right across the board it might at best result in a 15% increase in attendance and I think that's being optimistic.
Last edited by Hambone on Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hambone
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SammyGreene wrote:Over 50,000 showed up for the "event" of the stadium re-opening yet a key divisional game against Calgary drew only 30,000 a week later with the Lions steamrolling at the time. Skulsky was on record in training camp the following season saying they expected 40,000 for the 2012 season opener for the Grey Cup rematch with Winnipeg. Instead the game drew 29,000 which also reflected season ticket expectations not being realized.
I honestly felt the same way that the stadium reno would've been worth another 5000/game for at least the first couple of full seasons before things settled back down.
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Interesting perspective from Hambone and B.C.Fan. If we take ticket prices out of the equation, how can one explain that season tickets are at only 15k in a Grey Cup-hosting year? Ackles did get season ticket sales up to 24k a few years ago in the old B.C. Place. What happened to those 9k season ticket holders? Did they all become Whitecaps' season ticket holders instead? Could those 9k all have HDTV now and watch the games on there? What is (are) the reason(s) for a fairly significant attendance decline in B.C.?
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Hambone wrote:I'm with you on that yet it seems to many that the ticket pricing is the beginning and end of the term "marketing". The Lions offer 5 different price breaks plus the Family Zone and Gridiron deck which amount to roughly $22 for the ticket portion, half the price of an end zone seat. In addition to full season tickets they also offer 10 game flex packs and 3 game packs all providing a savings off the single game price. Touchdown End Zone seats are effectively 50% of the cost of the virtually sold out Coaches Sideline seats. I wonder how many people who complain about how tough it is to come up with $40 for one of those end zone seats has no problem coming up with another $25 for a couple of beer and a dog once they are inside. Folks seem to think the end zone seats are overpriced yet the Whitecaps sell the same end zone seat at approximately 62% of sideline seat prices. To discount them any further from the half value of sideline seats can cause a ripple effect as it erodes the value of the other price points. Much of the gain in sales for the TDEZ seats could come at the expense of lost sales in higher priced sections.

As much as folks like to wax poetically about the wonderful things Bob Ackles did I have a hard time seeing where the current regime is doing anything much differently. They have a price structure that is mostly on par with the rest of the league. It seems to me that contrary to popular belief in some circles they have listened and have acted on things. One of the difficult things with making changes or trying different things is that you really don't know if the market will embrace the changes until well into the season. A couple of years ago folks grumbled about upper deck pricing being the same from bottom to top. Now there are 3 pricing levels with only the bottom 11 rows selling at lower bowl pricing. They've created more options for the price sensitive fan with family considerations. Their efforts in the community have not regressed whatsoever. They remain just as active in the community as they were under Ackles if not more involved in more programs. I'm really not sure how much more than can do beyond giving tickets away for next to nothing. Quite frankly I think if they cut prices in half right across the board it might at best result in a 15% increase in attendance and I think that's being optimistic.
Even if the Lions aren't running things a whole lot differently now from the Ackles II era, from a fan's POV the results aren't there in the stands. In fairness the Lions have had some challenges in the last six years that didn't hamper Ackles. The global financial crisis struck just months after his passing. We had to play for 1-1/2 seasons in a temporary facility that was reduced in both capacity and accessibility. Hi-def availability has shot through the roof. And IIRC it's true that the Lions were already noticeably increasing ticket prices before we lost him. But I'm not sure those prices would have escalated as quickly with his continued presence (can't really prove that one way or the other, admittedly), and I have to think he would have been more successful in winning back those who jumped ship in 2010 and for the most part haven't really returned.

We've also seen a scaling back in perks for STHs. In the Ackles II era there were calendars, a copy of his book, framed team photos. This is no longer the case and these perks have been discontinued while at the same time we're being asked to dig deeper into our wallets. You can't help but feel you're not as appreciated as much as a paying customer, especially if you were one of the new fans who came on board during that time.

On the other hand, if Ackles were still alive he'd be almost 75 now so it's not a given he'd still be running things to this day. He was such a singular individual that I think the Lions would almost certainly have taken a step back into the doldrums regardless of whenever or however he left the organisation. His premature death merely hastened the onset of the process.
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Blue In BC wrote:Lions are pricing themselves out of the market. Everyone now has large HD TV's to watch compared to just a few short seasons ago.

It's getting harder to justify ticket prices for many folks I suspect.
Precisely
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I still HAVE NOT invested in the HI-DEF channels (not home often enough). However, if the season tickets get too pricey, the first thing I'd do is get a reciever and get a home sports package. Watch those Lions game on TV at home. The booze and food is better and cheaper TOO! That being said, I still would prefer to see the games in person. I have a $$$ mark where I'm gonna say "THATS IT, I'm watching at home". Not there yet (and reluctant to say where in case they try to get there fast :cool: ) but they'll get there.........
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