Lions' D Line for 2014 -- Mike Beamish re David Menard

[South Pender]

Don't lose Keron's phone number....

[WestCoastJoe]

Here is how the D Line roster stands at this time ...

Imports: Jordan, Smith, Wilson, Mitchell, Taylor

NIs: Westerman, Reid, Menard, Doege

Wally just released one import. No more to come from US tryouts? Looks like we are going with a veteran presence in our Grey Cup hosting year.

[DanoT]

Don't lose Keron's phone number....

With TC only 2 weeks away I'm surprised that we haven't got news of Keron signing with an NFL team or more likely another CFL team. I guess in the short term, no news is good news, but I am hoping to hear the really good news when he resigns with the Lions.

[OV - 54:40]

Menard was IMO about the biggest steal/value pick where the Lions got him in this draft; guy has been a Q all-star at both DE & DT and can maybe contribute right away by being able to play a bit at both positions - maybe a bit under-sized to play DT in the CFL (but so was Keron Williams in IMO his best CFL days at DT for the Als), but he is super strong (led the Combine in bench #), and could be a good 3 technique guy; has a motor from seeing him play at U Montreal and could also be a decent pass rushing force at DE if given some playing time there.

Wally got some real value in the later rounds (Chin, Menard, Fox) after a couple of IMO iffy early picks (not sure how Player rates a top 3 or even 5 O-line prospect this draft other than he played US college ball?; Lochard will get zero shot to play tailback IMO, so not a real back-up there, but a fullback type to Wally, and it's an ultra part-time position with Lumbala already in place, and another back-up type there could have been drafted in the late rounds or signed as a FA).

[WestCoastJoe]

Menard was IMO about the biggest steal/value pick where the Lions got him in this draft; guy has been a Q all-star at both DE & DT and can maybe contribute right away by being able to play a bit at both positions - maybe a bit under-sized to play DT in the CFL (but so was Keron Williams in IMO his best CFL days at DT for the Als), but he is super strong (led the Combine in bench #), and could be a good 3 technique guy; has a motor from seeing him play at U Montreal and could also be a decent pass rushing force at DE if given some playing time there.

Wally got some real value in the later rounds (Chin, Menard, Fox) after a couple of IMO iffy early picks (not sure how Player rates a top 3 or even 5 O-line prospect this draft other than he played US college ball?; Lochard will get zero shot to play tailback IMO, so not a real back-up there, but a fullback type to Wally, and it's an ultra part-time position with Lumbala already in place, and another back-up type there could have been drafted in the late rounds or signed as a FA).

Good points, OV.

I agree about Menard. And about Keron in Montreal. With the big field, wider gaps, it seems to me the right kind of undersized, athletic, strong DT can prosper in the CFL. Our staff changed Keron from DE to some inside work last year. By year end it was Smith and Wilson on the outside, with Taylor and Williams on the inside. Dunno why Keron's change failed. Age, less quickness, less strength? Wally seems in no hurry to re-sign him, at least at the price Keron wants.

Yes, Lochard was a surprise pick.

[South Pender]

Menard was IMO about the biggest steal/value pick where the Lions got him in this draft; guy has been a Q all-star at both DE & DT and can maybe contribute right away by being able to play a bit at both positions - maybe a bit under-sized to play DT in the CFL (but so was Keron Williams in IMO his best CFL days at DT for the Als), but he is super strong (led the Combine in bench #), and could be a good 3 technique guy; has a motor from seeing him play at U Montreal and could also be a decent pass rushing force at DE if given some playing time there.

Wally got some real value in the later rounds (Chin, Menard, Fox) after a couple of IMO iffy early picks (not sure how Player rates a top 3 or even 5 O-line prospect this draft other than he played US college ball?; Lochard will get zero shot to play tailback IMO, so not a real back-up there, but a fullback type to Wally, and it's an ultra part-time position with Lumbala already in place, and another back-up type there could have been drafted in the late rounds or signed as a FA).

I know that Menard has been mentioned in a CFL.ca article as a possible 3-tech guy, but I think he's a little small for this at 265 lbs. He'd be facing guards and O-tackles that outweigh him by 50 lbs., and won't replace Taylor or Mitchell in the middle, or give the D much chance of collapsing the pocket. I think he's quick--he did a 4.47 in the shuttle--and might function in a one-gap scheme (with our active LBs) as a 3-tech, but in my view, he'd be better utilized as a DE if he has any chance of making the team and ultimately making a contribution. His speed and motor just might get him a spot on the final roster, but I think it's a long-shot.

Despite the fact that a really cat-quick DT can sometimes be effective (if I'm remembering correctly, the Broncos of the 1990s had some small, but effective D-linemen), Wally likes big guys. As he says, "You can always find good football players. What is difficult to find is big athletes." (Toronto Sun article by Bil Lankhof).

[Blitz]

Keron Williams had 11 sacks for our Leos in 2011 and 12 sacks in 2012, before last season's poor showing.

I've read a lot on Lionbackers about how dum a move it was last year to move Keron Williams to the tackle position, with the departure of

The fact is that our Leos did not mvoe Keron Williams to the tackle position but decided to move him around and have him play both tackle and defensive end. Keron Williams had 10 sacks from the tackle position in 2009 with Montreal and having him play both positiions should have worked out. In fact we used to line up Brent Johnson inside on occasions.

Keron Williams played defensive end for the majority of last season and not defensive tackle. With only 4 sacks coming from playing defensive end and defensive tackle was just a poor showing. I think we will be better off going in a different direction in 2014.

However, with Smith aging and Wilson not blowing us out of the water last season it appears that we really need a pure pass rusher in our lineup. Perhaps Wilson will be able to step up, with a CFL training camp under his belt but I;m hopeful that we will have some pass rushing defensive end prospects in camp and that someone will be able to step up.

[Shi Zi Mi]

Keron Williams had 11 sacks for our Leos in 2011 and 12 sacks in 2012, before last season's poor showing.

I've read a lot on Lionbackers about how dum a move it was last year to move Keron Williams to the tackle position, with the departure of

The fact is that our Leos did not mvoe Keron Williams to the tackle position but decided to move him around and have him play both tackle and defensive end. Keron Williams had 10 sacks from the tackle position in 2009 with Montreal and having him play both positiions should have worked out. In fact we used to line up Brent Johnson inside on occasions.

Keron Williams played defensive end for the majority of last season and not defensive tackle. With only 4 sacks coming from playing defensive end and defensive tackle was just a poor showing. I think we will be better off going in a different direction in 2014.

However, with Smith aging and Wilson not blowing us out of the water last season it appears that we really need a pure pass rusher in our lineup. Perhaps Wilson will be able to step up, with a CFL training camp under his belt but I;m hopeful that we will have some pass rushing defensive end prospects in camp and that someone will be able to step up.

Keron Williams put on weight last off season in order to be more effective inside.....it back fired as he was just less effective in general.......a slimmed down Keron Williams could very well be the Keron Williams of old.

[South Pender]

Keron Williams had 11 sacks for our Leos in 2011 and 12 sacks in 2012, before last season's poor showing.

I've read a lot on Lionbackers about how dum a move it was last year to move Keron Williams to the tackle position, with the departure of

The fact is that our Leos did not mvoe Keron Williams to the tackle position but decided to move him around and have him play both tackle and defensive end. Keron Williams had 10 sacks from the tackle position in 2009 with Montreal and having him play both positiions should have worked out. In fact we used to line up Brent Johnson inside on occasions.

Keron Williams played defensive end for the majority of last season and not defensive tackle. With only 4 sacks coming from playing defensive end and defensive tackle was just a poor showing. I think we will be better off going in a different direction in 2014.

However, with Smith aging and Wilson not blowing us out of the water last season it appears that we really need a pure pass rusher in our lineup. Perhaps Wilson will be able to step up, with a CFL training camp under his belt but I;m hopeful that we will have some pass rushing defensive end prospects in camp and that someone will be able to step up.

Trouble is that the current roster doesn't show any new import DEs to challenge Smith and Wilson. And now Jordan has been moved inside again to DT--in the latest-posted roster! I haven't figured out what kind of schemes Mark Washington is planning, but projecting 255-pounders (Jordan) and 265-pounders (Menard) in the middle seems unusual to say the least. So I can't see any evidence yet of improvement at the ends, and hence my hopes that Keron will land here after all the back & forth. He may not be truly great, but, in my view at least, he's an improvement over both Smith and Wilson.

In my dreams, I see the two big DTs we have--Taylor and MItchell--playing a two-gap scheme and capable of mounting a credible bull-rush on passing downs. Whether Taylor is up for that, I'm not sure, but Mitchell is, and he's done it before. We don't need big sack numbers from these inside guys, just their ability to occupy two O-linemen and on occasion collapse the pocket. However, this kind of scheme will work only if we have some agile, quick, and strong DEs coming at the QB from the ends--guys who can beat slower OTs on the outside. In my view, that's where our D is sorely lacking, and is why I'm hoping to see Keron back.

[B.C.FAN]

Now that free-agent camps are over, I expect the Lions to sign at least a couple more defensive linemen. They have 10 on the roster now. They usually open main camp with 11 or 12 so they can go three deep and spare their vets from too many reps, and that's after weeding out one or two at rookie camp. Right now, Doege and Menard are the only two rookies on the roster.

[pennw]

Trouble is that the current roster doesn't show any new import DEs to challenge Smith and Wilson. And now Jordan has been moved inside again to DT--in the latest-posted roster! I haven't figured out what kind of schemes Mark Washington is planning, but projecting 255-pounders (Jordan) and 265-pounders (Menard) in the middle seems unusual to say the least. So I can't see any evidence yet of improvement at the ends, and hence my hopes that Keron will land here after all the back & forth. He may not be truly great, but, in my view at least, he's an improvement over both Smith and Wilson.

In my dreams, I see the two big DTs we have--Taylor and MItchell--playing a two-gap scheme and capable of mounting a credible bull-rush on passing downs. Whether Taylor is up for that, I'm not sure, but Mitchell is, and he's done it before. We don't need big sack numbers from these inside guys, just their ability to occupy two O-linemen and on occasion collapse the pocket. However, this kind of scheme will work only if we have some agile, quick, and strong DEs coming at the QB from the ends--guys who can beat slower OTs on the outside. In my view, that's where our D is sorely lacking, and is why I'm hoping to see Keron back.

Do you not think you put perhaps just a bit much emphasis on what guys weigh? Lots of big guys have been cut over the years . Weused to have Aaron Hunt as a mainstay on our Dline for years and he was a great DT for us at 280 . He was constantly critsized for being over weight at that weight to boot . Bryant Turner of the Bombers has been one of the best DTs in the league for more than a couple of years now at 276 lbs. There is more to a player then just size or weight .
Menard is about the same size as Brent Johnson was , so I wouldn't hold his body weight against him .

[South Pender]

Trouble is that the current roster doesn't show any new import DEs to challenge Smith and Wilson. And now Jordan has been moved inside again to DT--in the latest-posted roster! I haven't figured out what kind of schemes Mark Washington is planning, but projecting 255-pounders (Jordan) and 265-pounders (Menard) in the middle seems unusual to say the least. So I can't see any evidence yet of improvement at the ends, and hence my hopes that Keron will land here after all the back & forth. He may not be truly great, but, in my view at least, he's an improvement over both Smith and Wilson.

In my dreams, I see the two big DTs we have--Taylor and MItchell--playing a two-gap scheme and capable of mounting a credible bull-rush on passing downs. Whether Taylor is up for that, I'm not sure, but Mitchell is, and he's done it before. We don't need big sack numbers from these inside guys, just their ability to occupy two O-linemen and on occasion collapse the pocket. However, this kind of scheme will work only if we have some agile, quick, and strong DEs coming at the QB from the ends--guys who can beat slower OTs on the outside. In my view, that's where our D is sorely lacking, and is why I'm hoping to see Keron back.

Do you not think you put perhaps just a bit much emphasis on what guys weigh? Lots of big guys have been cut over the years . Weused to have Aaron Hunt as a mainstay on our Dline for years and he was a great DT for us at 280 . He was constantly critsized for being over weight at that weight to boot . Bryant Turner of the Bombers has been one of the best DTs in the league for more than a couple of years now at 276 lbs. There is more to a player then just size or weight .
Menard is about the same size as Brent Johnson was , so I wouldn't hold his body weight against him .

Sure, I agree that weight is not everything and maybe not the most important thing, but it definitely is a factor in the inside of the line, the DTs--which was the part I was addressing. Brent Johnson was a DE, and I have noted above that this is where I see Menard having some chance, on the outside--just not in the middle, where his weight would make him, in my opinion, unable to resist being pushed around by big guards and tackles.

[WestCoastJoe]

Re David Menard ...

High marks for attitude, strength, agility, quickness.

He is one of those guys that has always had to prove himself. No easy road for him. He was greatly disappointed in his pre draft ranking.

I, as a fan, am not overly concerned about his size. As noted, "undersized" guys like Brent Johnson, Keron Williams and others have lined up inside, at least on occasion, effectively. Within a scheme, and with skill, a smaller DT can rush the passer. And he can fill a gap against the run. And smaller guys can cover ground against sweeps, and on cutbacks. IMO ...

“I’m a strong guy, so I’m gonna show them that I can play against the big guys and I can play strong against the big guy,” Menard said after Saturday’s testing. “But I think the scouts don’t think that I’m fast enough to play off the edge, so I’m gonna try to show them that I can play fast.”

“I’m gonna show them that I can play strong and I want to show them that I can play fast too.”

I am rooting for him. No guarantees. He has to convince his coaches that he can play. We brought him in. I hope he gets a real opportunity. Can he bring some of what Brent Johnson brought? That would be nice.

I am happy that we are showing some increased focus on building an NI contingent for the D Line, long neglected. IMO.

[David]

I wouldn't say size at DT is the be-all-and-end-all. For example, you can stick a guy in there like Menard in obvious passing situations (2nd and long) if he's strong, has quick feet and a motor. And I expect Washington to rotate players in and out depending on down and distance. You don't have to employ a 315lb nose tackle on every down. I realize one can put too much stock in the bench press, but a guy who can heave 225lbs 33 times in a row isn't necessarily going to get pushed around by a guy who outweighs him by 50lbs (and pennw, looking at Menard on film, he does remind me of Brent Johnson. I'd be happy if he's even half as successful. For whatever reason though, neither the Lions nor the Canucks have had much luck throughout their history drafting Quebecois).

Our first pick going to Ottawa notwithstanding, I'd say we did fairly well in the draft, but only time will tell. We were able to pick up Duane Forde's #4, 7, and 8 overall ranked players (Chin, Player, and Menard respectively).


DH

[pennw]

But there are other starting DTs that were under 280 last season . Turner as I already mentioned and a few others like Terrious Goerge,Jermaine McElveen of the riders were all under 280 as well as most of the Als Dline .McElveen (now with the Als) is listed as 265 , and he was a good starting DT for the Riders last season . I just had a look at some of the rosters and only a few starting DTs were over 290 . Sure it's nice we can get areal big guy like Mitchell but I wouldn't write off a guy because he's under a certain weight .
Brandon Jordan BTW seems to be move to a DE position instead of DT , but even he , when he first started in the DT position did pretty good at 255 .