Lions' O Line for 2014 - Montreal shows how to build an OL

[pennw]

We did have a couple WCJ , Rico Forbes and Garret Chisholm . Both are gone after seemingly looking good . Forbes injured , then just disappeared ? Chisholm just left ? Why? Seems to me a lot of the OT's we brought in had histories of injury , the reason they were out of the NFL and available to us. Perhaps injury history should be considered . Then there was that other DB who had a falling out with Bene and left , after looking like one of our best recruits . Was that guy not given a chance to compete fairly ? Was that also the case for some of the others who left ? They see one a guy is penciled in to the spot they are competing for and they have no chance at actually beating the starter out so why would they bother to proceed further - is that what is happening ?

[WestCoastJoe]

We did have a couple WCJ , Rico Forbes and Garret Chisholm . Both are gone after seemingly looking good . Forbes injured , then just disappeared ? Chisholm just left ? Why? Seems to me a lot of the OT's we brought in had histories of injury , the reason they were out of the NFL and available to us. Perhaps injury history should be considered . Then there was that other DB who had a falling out with Bene and left , after looking like one of our best recruits . Was that guy not given a chance to compete fairly ? Was that also the case for some of the others who left ? They see one a guy is penciled in to the spot they are competing for and they have no chance at actually beating the starter out so why would they bother to proceed further - is that what is happening ?

Dunno, pennw. It seems like there is a disconnect somewhere in the works. Who decides which guys look promising? Who decides which guys get invites to tryout camps? Who decides which guys get invites to TC? Who decides which guys are "not good enough" once they are on our practice fields? And we are talking about guys who come in with high level college experience, look good on film, and usually have some NFL experience. Do we not know what to look for? Do we change our minds when we get the guys on the roster? Do we have some kind of impossible ideal in mind that cannot be found? Can we not draft, train and develop our own national left tackle? Perhaps that guy can be Hunter Steward. Who knows? But I think some focus has to be on how we are making these evaluations, and on the entire process. It has been chaos. And not for the first time.

Two OL on the suspended list. That is strange.

Suspended

Heyer, Stephon

Chisolm, Garrett

[Rammer]

We did have a couple WCJ , Rico Forbes and Garret Chisholm . Both are gone after seemingly looking good . Forbes injured , then just disappeared ? Chisholm just left ? Why? Seems to me a lot of the OT's we brought in had histories of injury , the reason they were out of the NFL and available to us. Perhaps injury history should be considered . Then there was that other DB who had a falling out with Bene and left , after looking like one of our best recruits . Was that guy not given a chance to compete fairly ? Was that also the case for some of the others who left ? They see one a guy is penciled in to the spot they are competing for and they have no chance at actually beating the starter out so why would they bother to proceed further - is that what is happening ?

That DB (McDonald) just signed on with the Stampeders. It will be interesting to see if they find room for him to start, and if he can keep a cool head with Hufnagel and company.

[Hambone]

We did have a couple WCJ , Rico Forbes and Garret Chisholm . Both are gone after seemingly looking good . Forbes injured , then just disappeared ? Chisholm just left ? Why? Seems to me a lot of the OT's we brought in had histories of injury , the reason they were out of the NFL and available to us. Perhaps injury history should be considered . Then there was that other DB who had a falling out with Bene and left , after looking like one of our best recruits . Was that guy not given a chance to compete fairly ? Was that also the case for some of the others who left ? They see one a guy is penciled in to the spot they are competing for and they have no chance at actually beating the starter out so why would they bother to proceed further - is that what is happening ?

I was there at camp when Forbes went down. I'm not even sure if he was playing OT or G at the time. It was just a typical football injury that happened during a routine play in fully padded team play. Forbes was playing college ball last year so there's no NFL injury history. He's just another NCAA kid who didn't get drafted this year but did sign with by Green Bay after the draft. He was released after mini-camp. There is nothing to read into his injury. It was just football bad luck.

[WestCoastJoe]

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/footb ... story.html

“We have another guy starting at left tackle [Hunter Steward] and that might mean some growing pains,” Harris said. “But that also allows us to put another American on the field. We took another step last week. The confidence is coming back.”

Good for Hunter Steward. If this is the plan, it speaks well of how the staff sees him. If we can effectively start a national at LT, it does wonders for our ratio.

Hopefully our game plan has help for Steward. If we leave him on an island we are asking for trouble. And we are damaging a highly rated young O Lineman.

http://www.bclions.com/video/index/id/98943

Steward earlier in the month ... (Deep voice)

[MexicoLionFan]

I think this is great news for the Leos, as long as the PROTECT HIM...give Steward lots of help and build his confidence...besides QB, there isn't a position in Pro Football that requires confidence more than LT. Double Tights...lots of Lumbala and Harris on that side...RUN THE FOOTBALL and let him steamroll people...quick passing game...we get this kid healthy, and build his confidence and there's no limit to how good he good become...

The left side of the line is now Steward, Fabien and Norman...I am LOVING this...thanks Kelly Bates!

[Rammer]

I think this is great news for the Leos, as long as the PROTECT HIM...give Steward lots of help and build his confidence...besides QB, there isn't a position in Pro Football that requires confidence more than LT. Double Tights...lots of Lumbala and Harris on that side...RUN THE FOOTBALL and let him steamroll people...quick passing game...we get this kid healthy, and build his confidence and there's no limit to how good he good become...

The left side of the line is now Steward, Fabien and Norman...I am LOVING this...thanks Kelly Bates!

Before there is that much praise on the SFN OL, lets see how this pans out. The double tightends has been a winning tradition in the past against the Als rushing. Seems to me that Higgins gave up the blitzing the QB to readily, and that may turn out to be a ploy to get the Lions into defensive mode on the offense.

[WestCoastJoe]

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/foot ... story.html

From Mike Beamish ...

“As quarterbacks, we were excited to see Hunter play, because of the asset we feel he’ll be for our team,” remarked Beck, who replaced Glenn late in the third quarter after the starter had thrown for 301 yards -- his first 300-yard game as a Lion.

“We felt this was a good game for Hunter to start his (career) clock. He needs to start playing, getting reps, because he’s only going to get better. He’s a confident guy. He looks the part. It’s exciting for us to see him progress.”

The 22-year-old Steward, the third different player to start at left tackle in the Lions’ first four games, was party to only one obvious lapse, in the first quarter, when he and left guard Kirby Fabien got their signals crossed. It allowed defensive tackle Michael Klassen an unimpeded lane in which to sack Glenn, one of four quarterback takedowns registered by the Alouettes.

“It was a little bit of miscommunication,” Steward admitted. “We talked it out on the sidelines. We got that same look a couple of other times, and we locked it down.”

Two other sacks, however, occurred opposite to where Steward lined up. The fourth Alouette sack was a gimme, after Partridge mishandled the snap late in the fourth quarter in relief of Beck.

“I have to agree with Beck that making mistakes is the best way to learn,” Steward said. “You learn from mistakes much better than watching from the sidelines. Everybody’s going to mess up, once in a while. What makes a great athlete is to be able to learn from that mistake, correct it and move forward.”

http://lionbackers.com/bc_lions/viewtop ... &start=225

The Lions gave up 4 sacks. One to Partridge after a poor snap exchange. One on a miscommunication between Steward and Fabien on the left. The move was repeated by the Alouettes two other times, and Steward and Fabien handled it well. Two other sacks occurred on the right.

[WestCoastJoe]

...

So far this season Kevin Glenn cannot simply drop 5 steps back in the pocket and deliver an ACCURATE pass to an open receiver...so who's to blame??? Huh? You really want to dump this on Kevin Glen who has thrown for over 40,000 yards, and is know as one of the MOST ACCURATE passers in CFL history? Or its the fault of the receivers...you want me to seriously believe that the total professional Courtney Taylor doesn't know how to run an out or a hook, or a crossing pattern? And I am not going to waste my time worrying about why Iannuzzi starts ahead of Kito "Ima futucha halla famnah" Poblah, or that Adekolu doesn't dress...Glenn hasn't shown the arm to throw to the wide side of the field and he isn't afforded the time. Usain Bolt could start out there and it wouldn't make a difference. Coaching, Coaching, COACHING!!!
...

Our Offensive Line has a ton of talent on it including the best OLineman in the league. Talent or ability is NOT the problem with our OLine. Why is it that Matthew Albright (a liability for us as TE in our jumbo formations) can start in OTT and they have a better offence than ours? How is it that Justin Sorenson can go from not getting ANY PLAYING TIME here to being the starting centre in WPG? And in games we played against him, WPG ran all over us!!! Enough with these short sighted comments that our OLine is a disgrace, is in disarray, etc...they're fine...Steward, Fabien, Norman, Olafoye...a good nucleus...I told you during the off season that Dean Valli was no more than a good backup OLineman...he's NOT a starter any longer in the CFL, and yet he's still starting...a few of you have taken shots at Matt Norman...show me a CFL Centre that is struggling and I will show you weak Guard play. Last week Valli did a decent job and Fabien was excellent...Norman had a great game...this week Valli was a complete mess (not even including his penalties) and suddenly Norman isn't a true centre and he's our problem.

(Brought over from the Post Game thread as it relates to a continuing problem.)

[WestCoastJoe]

...

Our ofensive line has been a problem that Chap was stuck with and Jones has inherited. Even in 2004 with an MOP season from Printers, in 2005, with an 11 game win streak with Dickenson at the controls, and a 2006 Grey Cup winning season with an incredibly talented offensive line, our quarterbacks have been under seige. We led the CFL in getting our quarwerback sacked in those successful seasons.

The fact is that we have always had a very difficult time with stunts and blitzes since Dorazio has been here. Last night defenders came completely free, time and time again, with clear, uninpeded shots at the quarterback. Often our quarterback had less than two seconds to throw. Glenn, a quick release quarterback was sacked 6 times and could have been sacked 12 times. He is not mobile but he has very good pocket presence. The relentless pressure, hits, and sacks he has taken is breaking him down mentally.

Why we did not go double tights, run the football right at Winnipeg, whose run defense has not been terrific is beyond me. Why we chose to go spread, including a lot of empty backfield, is shocking, especially with as much inexperience on the left side of the offensive line is more than surprising but also stupid. Chap took the heat when our rushing attack struggled but the truth is that, when our running attack was succesful, it was mostly due to formation,scheme, misirection, or the talent of the tailback. Darazio does not teach run blocking well and his pass blocking scheme is on the planet Pluto. Penalties on our offensive lineman added to the misery.

Jones had better figure out, as Chap eventually had to, that you have to go with double tights or move the pocket, or use misdirection to get our offence to overcome Dorazio's inability to get the job done.

(Brought over from the Post Game thread as it relates to a continuing problem.)

[WestCoastJoe]

I agree WCJ that coaching tend to even out a little more as a season progresses or good players start to make some adjustments on their own to weak coaching but that can only go so far...

I spent most of last nights game watching formation, motion, and our offensive line. I did not see our offensive line beaten or block badly on most one on one matchups.

What I saw was either confused assignments, poor positioning, or completely missed assignments on stunts and blitzes. This is not new. We have been a terrible anti-stunt, anti-blitz offence since Dorazio has been here. We've relied in our passing game on mobile quarterbacks or a quarterback like Dickenson who played about 1/3 of his time on the field and 2/3 in injury bay due to his penchant for taking a hit to make a completion. All of our quarterbacks have taken a severe beating since Dorazio got here and had more than a fair share of injuries. We've too often led the CFL in giving up quarterback sacks or had high sack totals. Glenn is just the new human piñata. You either have to be a very quick release quarterback or very mobile to play QB behind a Dorazio offensive line and even that is tough.

Chap took a beating on Lionbackers but he was badly handicapped by poor offensive line play and not because of our offensive line talent. We just can't pick up blitzes and stunts. Its not complicated. All it takes is a zone offensive pass blocking scheme playing inside out.

So often our offensive lineman miss assignments or are in bad positions. That is mostly coaching. Jones has not understood yet what it took Chap way too long to figure out too...that you just can't go spread offence, even with a tailback blocking, the way Dorazio has our offensive line blocking. You have to go power or misdirection or bootleg. Basically as an offensive coordinator you have to scheme in a way that takes into account that Dorazio is not going to get you the blocking you need to be successful.

Offensive lineman get worse and more confused the longer they play for Dorazio, who changes his blocking schemes like the weather because none of them work. Dean Valli played guard for our 2011 Grey Cup team but we used a lot of motion, formation, and misdirection, along with Lulay's mobility to get it done. Its what we have to do again until Dorazio finally hangs up his cleats.

(Brought over from the Post Game thread as it relates to a continuing problem.)

[WestCoastJoe]

I spent most of last nights game watching formation, motion, and our offensive line. I did not see our offensive line beaten or block badly on most one on one matchups.

I did the same thing for the MTL game and I posted the same thing...in fact, Steward was cleanly beaten once against very good MTL pass rushers, and only struggled twice the entire game mano e mano...the only one last night that got beat clean was Valli, and that happened twice. As I have said time and again Blitz, the talent on the OLine is more than fine...as TLK said, and has said many times, lets just line guys up in our sights and fire off the ball...the thing that kills me about Jones is that as a QB and an OC, he was known for big formations, running the football, and then PLAY ACTION passing. Where is our play action this year? We did it once in the first game and Glenn horribly over threw a wide open receiver...If I'm Jones, with Dorazio coaching the OLine, I retreat like Chaps did back to basic formations, a twin set backfield (splitting Lumbala and Logan with Harris), add in as a basic feature the jumbo set, and run the ball in a vertical pattern with dives and traps...because right now, even bellies are too slow developing for this line to adequately block. So far this season when we run dives (I haven't seen a single trap) out of a power formation, we are averaging about 7 - 8 yards per carry. Why aren't we doing this until teams stop us? Now you and I know Blitz that the first thing they teach you in coaching, when something works use it until they prove they can stop you at it...but its more than just that. When a dive works out of a power formation (that's typically 6 OLinemen, 2 Backs, QB, and 3 WRs (Arceneaux, Taylor and Gore) that means we can fake the dive and play action pass...if you run trips receivers to one side, then you can have Gore run a hard crossing pattern across the middle, have Taylor rub Gore's "man" with an intermediate out, and then run Manny Deep, preferably on a flag pattern so the safely can't come across for help (not every team has LaRose). On top of that, Lumbala can stick and roll off of his defender for a quick out, and Harris can run through the fake straight down the middle, putting the safety in a quandary. Now that's just off a simple, quick hitting dive, in the power formation. You can even wrinkle in the Jumbo set with another OLineman, make him WR eligible, and he can go out on a pattern...typically, just delay and go straight ahead. TONS of options for Glenn, with a high chance of success, and a low chance of him being hit.

Now, if a knuckle head like me can diagram this out, ANYBODY can! And how about our offensive woes inside the D's 10 yard line??? HOW??? Here a secret that I thought all OC's knew...once inside the D's 20 yard line (in the CFL, not NFL due to the size of our end zones) defences largely go man to man making them EXTREMELY susceptible to rubs and picks...If the Lions ran a trips formation to the wide side, with Harris cutting across underneath them, we would have a TD 10 out of 10 times...a defence can't simply defend this unless they went zone...and the problem with going zone inside the 20, is that receivers can easily sit down anywhere inside zone coverage for a quick, easy catch, which could be a TD...that's why you "can't" play zone inside the 20. So again, why don't we do this? Why the panicked look on everyone's face when we get inside the 20 yard line? This is easy stuff...RBs have to be covered by LBs inside the 20, unless a Defence goes zone...then you just audible to say an "all hook" call, inside receivers hook at 8 yards, outside receivers at 12 yards, and you take what they give!!!

When basic stuff like this isn't happening, like Washington not being able to design an effective blitz against a SUBPAR WPG OLine, you HAVE to question the coaching.

Finally Blitz, if most of this is on Dorazio (as I now suspect), than I can certainly offer a partial apology to Chapdelaine...however, JC simply wouldn't STAY with what worked...the moment we got on any role, he wanted to go right back to his spread offence, which was brilliantly designed but COULD NOT be properly executed with the personnel that we had...now, if that was due to Dorazio, then as an OC (not matter who the coach and GM is/are) you MUST make a stand and demand FULL CONTROL of the offence. This is likely why the Lions have had so few Cups during our brilliant run with Wally (sound familiar Wally?) because Dorazio's OLines have not been able to execute what the OC diagramed. But that is no excuse...in fact I have NEVER heard of an OC not having complete control over an Offence until Wally's tenure here.

(Brought over from the Post Game thread as it relates to a continuing problem.)

[WestCoastJoe]

Keep it up, Blitz and MLF.

We've been on this message for a long time now. Wally eventually does act, when his very good survival skills tell him he must let go of loyalty for the good of the franchise.

Twelve years of this regime. And we see the same headaches with the O Line. It was not Chapdelaine. Is it Khari? No. Dan D has sway in the organization. He has been able to avoid direct scrutiny or accountability. Bad pass protection? Blame the OC. Blame the O Linemen for poor execution. How about the OL coach with lifetime job security? There are a long list of issues, discussed here for years. (Like the sports writer said, you can look it up.) He seems to be beyond the authority of the OC. He knows a million things about O Line play. And his young charges get the full load. Paralysis by analysis. It is my opinion that a veteran group would rebel. One wonders about the curious situation when we had two O Line coaches, Dorazio and Bates. Was it deemed necessary to modify and simplify the mental demands on the players? Get more of the feel of an ex pro O Lineman? And then Bates was removed from OL coaching and made RB coach? Too much of a contrast? Too threatening?

Wally will do what Wally wants in his own good time.

But at some point, all the evidence on tape, for years, has to bring about some change. Should Benny have cleaned house? Yes, based on poor performance, two more should have been replaced, but Benny may be part of the problem. Should Khari have demanded total control of the O? Absolutely. Does he have total control? It does not look like it. And if Khari is sacrificed? Well then there is Joe Pao Pao to try to pick up the pieces. It won't be Benny trying to be architect of the offence, something Hufnagel, Austin and Milanovich can do by second nature.

...

(Brought over from the Post Game thread as it relates to a continuing problem.)

[WestCoastJoe]

If you have a brilliant, tenured professor yet his students are consistently getting Cs and Ds and his A students are becoming B students, while others are even dropping the course, is he still considered a great teacher?

I am, frankly, sick and tired of other CFL teams fielding average (at best) O-lines yet managing to pick up blitz pressure while giving their quarterbacks adequate time in the pocket, yet ours continue to rack up dumb penalties (likely from “information overload”), seem thoroughly overwhelmed by creative stunts and blitzes, while our quarterbacks take a pounding.

This has been going on for the past 12 years here, folks. It’s not a blip, or even a trend. One step forward, two steps back. Bring ‘em in for a look-see and cut ‘em the next week. Failure across the line has become entrenched and, I hate to say it, accepted. Meanwhile, because Coach Dorazio is widely regarded as one of the best position coaches in the league, we look for excuses to rationalize our troubles instead of examining the common denominator: “they’re young,” “inexperienced,” “not good enough,” “our QBs hang onto the ball too long,” “too many crossing patterns,” “too many injuries,” “it’s the O-Coordinator’s fault.” Shower. Rinse. Repeat.

Even in our Grey Cup winning year of 2006 with Murphy and Jimenez - our bully tackles – our quarterbacks were *beeotch* slapped around with 59 sacks, which was more than our defense had (56). Time to consider a fresh set of eyes and a new “teacher.”


DH

(Bringing this over here as a continuing O Line theme, David.)

Confusion reigns. Techniques regress. We change philosophy from complicated zone to simpler man to man physical and back to zone. One can expect another change this year, due to our sack totals, and all that we see on the tape.

Just look at the product on the field. Do our guys know what to do? Do we miss assignments? Do our guys look preoccupied? Do they look lost? Do they show lack of technique as they try to learn new stuff, new ways? Do they look like they have been put into position to use their size, power and athleticism? Or do they look like they are thinking, thinking, thinking ... ? Are defenders left unblocked, as with Bryant Turner for one example, getting free, shocking runs at a startled Kevin Glenn?

Drafting: For years we drafted a number of guys who were later deemed to be too small. Hubert Buydens. Pierre Tremblay. Et cetera ... In that time the only product left since 2003 is Dean Valli, hardly a candidate for All Star status, although I support his effort. This changed when Kelly Bates got involved with evaluations and the draft. We then drafted Kirby Fabien, Matt Norman, Hunter Steward and Cameron Thorn. Much better selection.

Internationals. We bring them in by the trainload. And then we ship them out. Huge disconnect. What is our blueprint? These guys have been looked at on tape. We bring them to tryout camps. We bring some of them to TC. They have played high level college ball. Many have had some time in the NFL. And we ship them out. Can't understand the coach, or his methods, or his teaching, or his complicated system?

End result: We find ourselves with an extremely green O Line. Not that that should be a problem, as it isn't for other teams such as Hamilton, but with us, it spells disaster. Too much stuff to learn.

All one has to do is look at some of Alex Gibbs' (zone blocking "guru") stuff online to see what Dan Dorazio tries to teach his players. Is Dan Dorazio trying to channel Alex Gibbs? Very complicated. Very sophisticated. Very dependent on high intelligence, and lots of thinking. Thinking too much. Way too much.

One constant in all this time. Not Chapdelaine. Not Khari Jones. The one constant is Dan Dorazio. The dean of O Line coaches. In Wally's World. Would he have survived this long on some other team?

This is pro sports. We send guys home all the time. Next. But some coaches seem to get lifetime tenure, and some find a way to avoid the scrutiny, to get excuses made, to survive, despite the product on the field. Too tough? That is how it looks on the tape, and on the record, to some of us. Suddenly it seems cruel to look at the product of a coach? Jacques was shipped out. Stubler was shipped out. No tears shed, it seems to me. But how can we pick on Dorazio? The product and the tape and the record since 2003. Twelve years.

Can Dan Dorazio survive once again? Yes. Keep it simple. Put the players in position to succeed. Focus on their size and strength and athleticism. Keep the learning and thinking to a manageable level. Easy to do? No. But that is the key. It seems we have been here before. But perhaps these new guys can learn it? Ummmm ... doesn't look like it. Back to the lab.

IMO ...

[Toppy Vann]

I'd be interested if Blitz could answer this.

When Kruck-Dorazio were Co-OCs - 2007 - while they didn't get to the GC, wasn't that team working pretty effectively with run and pass blocking?

I was never more angry than when they traded Joe Smith for Charles Roberts - that was pure craziness. But Wally sent out the Kool Aid and the fans bought it. He became a villain overnight. Went to the Bombers who were in disarray and failed and of course we all said = yeah Wally knows best when the reality is that it was a poor situation and this player didn't become bad overnight.

I recall banged up Buck and Jarius from tons of hits.

I have always thought JC was the lone wolf coach and didn't play well with other coaches and that that was a possible factor in the line play disconnect - but maybe he had no control over the mad scientist up front.

I really don't like hearing 'run blocking is hard to teach' as is putting in run packages to have a decent running game. I am pretty sure the Lions are the only pro team to make that point.

I also don't like to see long term players like Jason Jimenez all of a sudden become "uncoachable" after being coachable for so long. I know folks here think he was dirty but since those days when - yes QBs went down - the OL had more stability. BUT their schemes and play calls exposed the QBs to big hits.

Wally has been here before. He won't panic and knows that changing coaches is not a panacea in a losing situation as that is what he used to see when he was a player and young assistant.

But the heat must be on. At least Toronto can claim bad stadium.

Jones is not helping the situation with his calling and Wally is not an offensive guru so is likely not as focused on the plays as other HCs might be like Calgary.