Lions' O Line for 2014 - Montreal shows how to build an OL

[TheLionKing]

http://www.bclions.com/video/index/id/98155

[WestCoastJoe]

http://www.bclions.com/video/index/id/98155

Huge guy. Speaks well. Seems to be a fast learner. Has some NFL experience, and some time with the Alouettes.

Glad he was available. And on such short notice. Montreal has had some excellent O Lines. Hopefully he shows us the level of talent they saw in him.

Does not seem overwhelmed by the situation.

[Hambone]

Big, young 300 pound guy signs a contract. Has a meal. Professional coach with decades of experience takes him out to the field, and pushes it to the point of puking. A pro coach does not know the limits of these things? Does not know the circumstances of the player? Did you just eat? This is not a track athlete, a runner.

Let's face it only those in attendance that day know whether it was a case of him being worked into the ground to the point of puking or if it really was as simple as a light workout leading to a disagreement between his stomach and his lunch. Maybe even as simple as a nervous stomach. Based on Steward's comments it sounds like the puking was much ado about nothing. He seemed to shrug it off as no big deal. Who knows. Maybe he's like Glenn Hall who used to puke before every game he played in.

[WestCoastJoe]

Big, young 300 pound guy signs a contract. Has a meal. Professional coach with decades of experience takes him out to the field, and pushes it to the point of puking. A pro coach does not know the limits of these things? Does not know the circumstances of the player? Did you just eat? This is not a track athlete, a runner.

Let's face it only those in attendance that day know whether it was a case of him being worked into the ground to the point of puking or if it really was as simple as a light workout leading to a disagreement between his stomach and his lunch. Maybe even as simple as a nervous stomach. Based on Steward's comments it sounds like the puking was much ado about nothing. He seemed to shrug it off as no big deal. Who knows. Maybe he's like Glenn Hall who used to puke before every game he played in.

Yes.

And as I indicated I am going to desist, at least for a while, from pressing any kind of judgment, or criticism, of our O Line coach.

Everything is going to be just fine.

[TheLionKing]

Feel much better that a bona fide tackle is playing in Ramsay's spot rather than shifting Valli into that position.

[South Pender]

http://www.bclions.com/video/index/id/98155

Huge guy. Speaks well. Seems to be a fast learner. Has some NFL experience, and some time with the Alouettes.

Glad he was available. And on such short notice. Montreal has had some excellent O Lines. Hopefully he shows us the level of talent they saw in him.

Does not seem overwhelmed by the situation.

Yeah...we can hope for the best from this guy. Does he actually have any NFL experience? I know he played for three seasons in the now-extinct United Football League, and three with the Spokane Shock Arena Football League team. I have some real concerns about him. First, he's an Alouette cast-off. What does that say? Second, he played guard, I believe, in college, and was listed at Centre with the Spokane Shock. Actually Arena Football is an 8-man game with only 3 true O-linemen. So...does he have any LT experience at all? Where did the Als have him lining up before cutting him? Having to put a guy like this into the most important and demanding position on the O-line really shows abject desperation on the part of the Lions in my opinion. A team should be 2-3 deep at that position. About all we can do is say a prayer and hope for the best and that Glenn lives to play another day....

[WestCoastJoe]

Yeah...we can hope for the best from this guy. Does he actually have any NFL experience? I know he played for three seasons in the now-extinct United Football League, and three with the Spokane Shock Arena Football League team. I have some real concerns about him. First, he's an Alouette cast-off. What does that say? Second, he played guard, I believe, in college, and was listed at Centre with the Spokane Shock. Actually Arena Football is an 8-man game with only 3 true O-linemen. So...does he have any LT experience at all? Where did the Als have him lining up before cutting him? Having to put a guy like this into the most important and demanding position on the O-line really shows abject desperation on the part of the Lions in my opinion. A team should be 2-3 deep at that position. About all we can do is say a prayer and hope for the best and that Glenn lives to play another day....

abject desperation on the part of the Lions in my opinion

Yes. Points well made, SP. Cause for concern. And I agree about the desperation. To me it is a head shaker.

Thought I read he had some time with Washington in the NFL. That must have been about one of the many other hopefuls we have run through since TC. Can't find anything now about NFL experience for Ryan Cave. Having NFL experience would have given some sense of the man's talent level.

Benevides not sure he will play against the Alouettes. It seems like we have to play him.

Wishing the best for Kevin Glenn and Ryan Cave. We don't know if this is just a stopgap, desperation measure, or if Cave will prove to be a capable Left Tackle.

From the Kelowna Courier ...

http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/sport ... fc578.html

New Lions lineman Ryan Cave hopes to get up to speed on protecting Kevin Glenn

Lions find emergency help for offensive line

Posted: Tuesday, July 1, 2014 4:44 pm

Monte Stewart The Canadian Press | 0 comments

SURREY, B.C. - The B.C. Lions are hoping that Ryan Cave will be a quick learner as they prepare to meet the Montreal Alouettes.

Quarterback Kevin Glenn's health — and interception rate — could depend on it.

Cave, a 26-year-old South Carolina native was signed Tuesday to help the Lions deal with an emergency situation at left offensive tackle. Due to injuries, the Lions (0-1) do not have anyone else with similar experience at the position who can start Friday in Montreal.

Cave, an Alouettes pre-season castoff who worked out with his new teammates for the first time Tuesday, only has one more full practice Wednesday, along with many playbook study sessions, to get ready for the Als (0-1). But despite the apparent ordeal, he welcomes the challenge.

"It's a great, great opportunity and I took advantage of it," said Cave, who had been back with his Arena League team, the Spokane Shock, and played a game for them, following his release from Montreal.

Lions coach Mike Benevides said there is a good chance Cave will start, depending on Wednesday's practice and how quickly he grasps B.C.'s offensive system.

"I'm just picking up different terminology and thinks like that, but it's coming along really fast," said Cave. "I always pick up things really fast."

Cave, who played collegiately at Virginia's Hampton University product, has spent the past three years with Spokane after three seasons in the now-defunct United Football League with the Hartford Colonials and Virginia Destroyers. Former NFL coach Marty Schottenheimer was his coach in Virginia.

"I've been playing football non-stop," said Cave. "So I'm ready to go. I've been in good shape and I'm just committed for anything to get the job done."

Cave's opportunity with B.C. came after rookie Andre Ramsey suffered an ankle injury in last weekend's season-opening loss to Edmonton. Second-year offensive lineman Hunter Steward is out with a knee injury, and Kirby Fabien is playing but is seeing limited action while he continues to recover from a severe knee injury that forced him to miss most of last season.

In the case of a right-handed quarterback like Kevin Glenn, left tackle is considered the most important position on the offensive line because that player has the responsibility to make sure a defender does not come around the signal-caller's blind side. Protecting Glenn's health is more crucial than usual because he is B.C.'s only healthy quarterback with CFL experience as usual starter Travis Lulay recuperates from off-season shoulder surgery.

Glenn liked what he saw of Cave in a fleeting examination as the Lions made some offensive adjustments for the Als.

"He's a pretty big guy," said Glenn. "It's going to take a lot to get around him. I can tell you that much.

"Just paying attention to some things, he's a pretty smart guy. He's picking up some stuff pretty well, because we've got some stuff going in. Just hearing him talk and communicate with the offensive linemen, he kind of knows what's going on."

Added defensive back Ryan Phillips: "He's getting thrown into the fire right now. He'll have to learn a lot of things on the run. But from (before practice) and my conversation with him, he seemed like a bright guy. He seems like a sponge and wants learn all the details to make him a better player and make him vital to our offence."

In addition to protecting Glenn from injury, Cave and company will also try to reduce the quarterback's interception rate. Glenn threw four interceptions against Edmonton after throwing only seven all season in 2013 while with the Calgary Stampeders.

"I've got three (interceptions left) for the rest of the season," Glenn said with a smile. "That means I'm not throwing no more interceptions. I'm gonna try (to go interception free.) Never say never, but I'm gonna try."

Provided that the Lions reduce turnovers, he believes that they will respond well following their loss to Edmonton and put on a better show in Montreal.

"It's not a race," he said of the CFL season," said Glenn. "It's a marathon. It's about who can withstand 18 games."

Injured tackle Ramsey's first CFL game did not last two full quarters as he was injured while Glenn was throwing one of his interceptions. When he went down, veteran Dean Valli, a nine-year veteran, saw his first-ever action as a tackle due to the emergency situation.

"Nobody got killed," said Valli. "We'll call that a success. I'll leave it at that."

Valli, who received the assignment because he is B.C.'s most senior offensive lineman, is expected to return to his usual starting right guard spot.

"I think, in a purrfect world, (the coaches) would not have me out there (at left tackle)," he said.

While Glenn said he is to blame for his interceptions and the loss to Edmonton, despite the circumstances with the offensive line, coach Benevides said the rest of the team must react the same way.

"Right now, there isn't one phase (of the game) that I can say is good enough," said Benevides. "We're not good enough anywhere. We've got a lot of work to do in all facets."

Injured tackle Ramsey's first CFL game did not last two full quarters as he was injured while Glenn was throwing one of his interceptions. When he went down, veteran Dean Valli, a nine-year veteran, saw his first-ever action as a tackle due to the emergency situation.

"Nobody got killed," said Valli. "We'll call that a success. I'll leave it at that."

Valli, who received the assignment because he is B.C.'s most senior offensive lineman, is expected to return to his usual starting right guard spot.

Full credit to you, Dean Valli. Teased by Angus Reid? Ask Angus how he would have done, pressed into service as an emergency measure left tackle. LOL

[WestCoastJoe]

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Angus ... story.html

Angus Reid: Offensive line’s cohesion depends on trust

By Angus Reid, Special to The Province July 3, 2014

“Trust. A five-letter word. Easy to say, hard to do.”

It’s maybe the most repeated phrase longtime offensive line coach Dan Dorazio preached to us throughout my entire CFL career.

I’m sure he’s still preaching to the boys this year, and with good reason. Along with mental toughness, trust may very well be the most important ingredient to any great offensive line. One step further, it may be the most important ingredient any great team has, period. It can’t be drafted, it can’t be traded for and it can’t be bought. It can only be earned, and time together is the only payment trust will accept.

Time together in off-season workouts, hanging out at training camp, hours in meetings together, even socializing during personal time, are just a few things that help build trust. It’s knowing that this person is your friend and that he’s willing to put in the same amount of work as you are. And finally there’s game time, and that’s a whole other level of trust.

From the opening kickoff to the final whistle, every single second of an offensive lineman’s game is built on the trust of his fellow linemates.

Think about it. From the first play called in the huddle, you are relying on constant communication with your other four linemen to figure out who you’re going to block and how you’re going to do it. This pre-snap discussion is usually in a four- or five-second window, a lot of the time in deafening noise.

Once the ball is snapped your ability to trust really gets put to the test. Everyone is now moving a million miles an hour. Defenders are nowhere near where they were prior to the snap. They’re twisting and slanting everywhere to confuse you and force mistakes. Assignments must change, blocks must be switched, and all this has to happen at full speed, usually during mid-collision.

There are no coaches to help you, no playbook to look at, no practice do-overs. All you have are your fellow linemates. Do they see what you’re seeing? Will they know to switch assignments with you? Do they understand your muffled barks? Can you trust that they will do what you know has to be done? If the answer is no, I don’t care how talented the five individuals are, the group will struggle.

How about after the play? When you go off to the sidelines and have to explain to the coach why the quarterback got sacked, or why the running back lost five yards. Will your buddy throw you under the bus? Or will he take some of the heat for you, because in the end, you’re all a part of it together.

Until you’ve played what coaches call lots of “quality” (game) reps together, you can’t know these answers. Unfortunately, without this knowledge championship-level trust can never be earned.

The Lions’ offensive line already seems to be in dire straits. They finished the first week of the season with two guards that had never played a CFL game before (T-Dre Player and Cameron Thorn), and veteran Dean Valli at left tackle, a position he has never had a practice rep at in his nine CFL seasons. It wasn’t exactly the plan.


So the airlift has begun. Ryan Cave was brought in a few days ago and will get his shot at left tackle this week. I’m sure all that’s going through his mind is that he needs to do whatever he can to prove to the coaches that he’s good enough to stick around, and who could blame him? This is his tryout.

The problem is, you literally are trying him out while at the same time trying to build a great offensive line. You can’t do both at the same time.

It’s not an ideal situation right now for the Lions, as you have a starting left side that has but a single CFL game on their resumés collectively. You have to start somewhere, though. The trick is to not have to keep restarting.

If this is the Lions’ offensive line for this season, that’s just fine. I know fans are waiting for both Kirby Fabien and young Hunter Steward to return to full health, but as Wally Buono said to me many years ago, you win with the best five offensive linemen, not necessarily the five best.

You can’t keep looking and waiting to plug someone new in just because you think he’s better. Offensive line doesn’t work that way. At this level all the linemen are talented enough or they wouldn’t be in the CFL.

It’s the five that can spend the most time on the field together that will make your best line. So let these guys develop, let them grow, and build that trust. Throw in some toughness and you’ve got all you need to have a championship offensive line.

Trust me.

[WestCoastJoe]

The Lions’ offensive line already seems to be in dire straits. They finished the first week of the season with two guards that had never played a CFL game before (T-Dre Player and Cameron Thorn), and veteran Dean Valli at left tackle, a position he has never had a practice rep at in his nine CFL seasons. It wasn’t exactly the plan.

"dire straits" ... Today's game will tell us a lot.

So the airlift has begun. Ryan Cave was brought in a few days ago and will get his shot at left tackle this week. I’m sure all that’s going through his mind is that he needs to do whatever he can to prove to the coaches that he’s good enough to stick around, and who could blame him? This is his tryout.

"airlift" ... Tryout, live, under fire, for keeps. Best of luck, Ryan Cave.

The problem is, you literally are trying him out while at the same time trying to build a great offensive line. You can’t do both at the same time.

It’s not an ideal situation right now for the Lions, as you have a starting left side that has but a single CFL game on their resumés collectively. You have to start somewhere, though. The trick is to not have to keep restarting.

"not an ideal situation"

"The trick is to not have to keep restarting."

Continuity would be nice.

You can’t keep looking and waiting to plug someone new in just because you think he’s better. Offensive line doesn’t work that way. At this level all the linemen are talented enough or they wouldn’t be in the CFL.

"You can’t keep looking and waiting to plug someone new in just because you think he’s better."

Yes. Many are called. And rejected.

Surprising that from all the international O Linemen brought in for TC, all are gone from the 44 man roster that suits up? Yes.

It’s the five that can spend the most time on the field together that will make your best line. So let these guys develop, let them grow, and build that trust. Throw in some toughness and you’ve got all you need to have a championship offensive line.

True words from Angus Reid, a retired professional O Lineman, in that line of distinguished, long-serving B.C. Lions centres.

Our guys are very, very young. Let's see if we can build an O Line that can carry on year after year, with stability.

[MexicoLionFan]

Excellent points guys...thanks for posting this Joe...what Angus is saying is quite right, for the OLine as a group, its better to settle on 5 guys and run with them than it is to bring change in every week...becuase like the defensive secondary, these are 2 groups that rely on positioning and trust...which is hard to do with new faces every week...so some really good points by Angus...but the FUTURE of BC's line is VERY, VERY bright...so even though we host the GC this season, maybe the best thing is to NOT push these young, talented linemen with knee injuries into dangerous positions...maybe taking our time with this young group will pay off for us in the long run. Loads and loads of young CDN talent...

[WestCoastJoe]

From the hard copy of the Sun, article by Mike Beamish ...

When the Lions went to training camp in Kamloops, there were 16 O Linemen competing for jobs, according to Mike Benevides. The coach said, the day before Friday's game, he had never seen such quality, size and depth before. And it all disappeared, through releases, injuries and unexpected departures.

Mistakes in selection for Camp?

Mistakes in judgment at Camp?

Players not liking the culture?

O Line coach and personnel department not on the same page?

"releases" ... Players sent home. Not good enough? From that "quality, size and depth" ???

"unexpected departures" ???

The result Friday ws what offensive line coach Dan Dorazio feared. A small details man, Dorazio had only two practices to prep Cave, a refugee from the Arena Football League, who lined up at left tackle against the Alouettes, replacing the injured Ramsey.

Unprepared, at the start of the season. Roster depth inadequate. Training inadequate. Personnel judgment inadequate. Not ready for battle, whatever the cause.

"small details man" ... And those details, I would suggest, cause paralysis by analysis for athletes in the heat of battle. One needs one's athletic instincts to play the game at speed. Having to think? It needs to be instinctive.

"Thorpe saw the film, and we knew what to do inside," explained Alouettes' defensive end John Bowman. "They kept their tackles on an island and they allowed their centre-guards to stay together. We knew the B gap was going to be open."

The Alouettes saw the film. The tsunami was coming, and we could not get out of the way.

"They switched their protections, and they took away what I was doing in the first half," Bowman said. "You can't pin what happened on 57 (Ryan Cave). I thought he played pretty good."

At half time, we made adjustments in the protection, and it slowed down the stunts. But we were not prepared to do it in the first half. ???

Cave is not a stopgap, Benevides insisted, although the evidence would suggest he is, given that the Lions had nobody on practice roster to step in when Ramsey went down last game.

I have sympathy for Ryan Cave. Will he get a chance to play the position? Or will he be shuffled out of town? It is kind of a schmozzle. I recall the airlifts we needed in the dark days of the Lions' history. NFL cuts. Relief is coming. Not for a good, long while yet.

..........

Some of us have talked about this for years. A comfortable Old Boys Club. More and more our guys are up against young coaches, with solid resumes, who have moved around to different teams, with different cultures, who have learned and climbed and built their knowledge and skills. Not so comfortable right now. Possibly some shock setting in. What the heck happened? So what can we do? Build solid game plans. Do the best we can with the situation at left tackle. Solve the mystery of the O Line injuries. I suspect it has to do with the complexity of the assignments, and the focus on "small details."

Yes, and thanks once again to Blitz and MLF. Their detailed analysis greatly helps the understanding.

[B.C.FAN]

I haven't studied the line play against Montreal in detail, but from what I saw on the live broadcast our linemen weren't getting beaten individually. They all seem to have the skill, strength and technique to play at this level. They were getting beaten collectively by stunts, primarily by Bowman looping inside and shooting a gap while Cave stood on an island with no one to block. That was pretty predictable. I don't think Noel Thorpe was the only person who figured that out. Most of us probably knew what was coming.

I don't expect a young, inexperienced O-line to make all the switches that are necessary at full speed to pick up those stunts, especially when the LT has had two practices with the team, the LG is playing his second professional game and the C has had one year at the most mentally demanding position on the O-line. But I do expect the offensive coaches to counter those stunts and blitzes by using double tights or keeping two running backs in protection, and by calling quick swing passes, screens, slants, hot routes and power runs to the A and B gaps. If a defensive lineman is going to take the long road to the QB, make him pay by running at his gap or getting rid of the ball quickly. I didn't see much of that on Friday. Glenn held onto the ball much longer than he normally does. We saw the results. He made some poor decisions with the ball but most of the problem seemed to stem from poor coaching and preparation.

[TheLionKing]

The reason why Cave was cast adrift by the Als is because he isn't quick enough to handle speed rushers. It was evident on Friday night. He has very poor foot speed.

[WestCoastJoe]

I haven't studied the line play against Montreal in detail, but from what I saw on the live broadcast our linemen weren't getting beaten individually. They all seem to have the skill, strength and technique to play at this level. They were getting beaten collectively by stunts, primarily by Bowman looping inside and shooting a gap while Cave stood on an island with no one to block. That was pretty predictable. I don't think Noel Thorpe was the only person who figured that out. Most of us probably knew what was coming.

I don't expect a young, inexperienced O-line to make all the switches that are necessary at full speed to pick up those stunts, especially when the LT has had two practices with the team, the LG is playing his second professional game and the C has had one year at the most mentally demanding position on the O-line. But I do expect the offensive coaches to counter those stunts and blitzes by using double tights or keeping two running backs in protection, and by calling quick swing passes, screens, slants, hot routes and power runs to the A and B gaps. If a defensive lineman is going to take the long road to the QB, make him pay by running at his gap or getting rid of the ball quickly. I didn't see much of that on Friday. Glenn held onto the ball much longer than he normally does. We saw the results. He made some poor decisions with the ball but most of the problem seemed to stem from poor coaching and preparation.

Points well made, BCF.

At times I have dug into the film. I don't expect to do so this time.

I think pretty much all the OL guys brought to Camp have the size, strength and skills to play in this league. Many get tossed aside for unknown reasons. They looked good at tryout camps. People deem them promising. We don't always know the criteria by which guys brought to Camp are sent home for "not being good enough." It seems like there is some kind of disconnect there. Tons brought in. And then sent home, eventually. Some of this is normal. But I would suggest not to this degree. There needs to be a closer correlation between the blueprint sought, and those examined at TC, and on our practice field. It seems to me that most of the guys brought in should be satisfactory. They have been screened, studied and evaluated, both on film, and usually in person.

You can’t keep looking and waiting to plug someone new in just because you think he’s better. Offensive line doesn’t work that way. At this level all the linemen are talented enough or they wouldn’t be in the CFL. - Angus Reid

You are not likely to find another Rob Murphy. And even he was not quite as good as the hype. And I say that even though he was one of my favourite players. So keep the best two or three from Camp, including allowance for health. They have to be healthy and not high risk of break down. It seems we keep chucking away reasonable candidates as we look for some kind of perfection.

It seems we belatedly did make adjustments against the Als, and did succeed in slowing down the stunts.

Yes, run at the vacated gap. Throw to the vacated zone. Glenn was rather evidently feeling overwhelmed. Understandable. He says he didn't really know where the pressure was coming from.

As dismal as things seem, Wally has righted the ship before, on a few occasions. We will see ...

[DanoT]

With rookie DC and OC I think the Lions slow start is not all that surprising. I expect improvements as the season progresses, so I am willing to be patient.

Of greater concern is the HC who acts like a nervous cheerleader on the sidelines. What does Coach Benny bring to the table? Is he a super organized details guy? Strict discipline guy? Xs and Os guy? Film breakdown guy? Whatever he is, he does not inspire confidence on the sidelines.

I don't like a "player coach" for a HC unless he is a lot older than the players and ends up as more of a father figure/mentor/adviser as opposed to a players "buddy".

Benny needs to get tough and kick some ass starting with the Oline coach getting the hogs run blocking and having the OC run the ball NO MATTER WHAT.