Lions' O Line for 2014 - Montreal shows how to build an OL

[TheLionKing]

Count me as one who doesn't get the Dorazio bashing......he only works with the talent that's given to him (he can't make Valli any sharper)......and is very well known on both sides of the border for his innovative techniques (ie tieing Kabongo's hands to stop him from holding) and dedication.......many players have commented on his teachings being the reason why they've had a career in the CFL at all.

Count me in as well. I have yet to hear someone say anything bad about Dorazio. Angus Reid had high praise for that man.

[Rammer]

Count me as one who doesn't get the Dorazio bashing......he only works with the talent that's given to him (he can't make Valli any sharper)......and is very well known on both sides of the border for his innovative techniques (ie tieing Kabongo's hands to stop him from holding) and dedication.......many players have commented on his teachings being the reason why they've had a career in the CFL at all.

Count me in as well. I have yet to hear someone say anything bad about Dorazio. Angus Reid had high praise for that man.

Dorazzio gets called into question by the lack of protection for numerous BC Lion QB's during his tenure as the OL coach. In addition to that, the Lions run game more often than not is stagnant at best for entire seasons. Finally, there have been way too many topend picks by the Lions that never see the light of day. Now you may place blame on the selection of contenders, but at some point there has to be a player that gets the "guru" enough to be counted on to play starting minutes. While I wouldn't say it is bashing level, it is a calling out to a consistent problem that the Lions have only two constants on....Wally and Dorazio. Questions have to be placed at somebodies feet.

[Shi Zi Mi]

Count me as one who doesn't get the Dorazio bashing......he only works with the talent that's given to him (he can't make Valli any sharper)......and is very well known on both sides of the border for his innovative techniques (ie tieing Kabongo's hands to stop him from holding) and dedication.......many players have commented on his teachings being the reason why they've had a career in the CFL at all.

Count me in as well. I have yet to hear someone say anything bad about Dorazio. Angus Reid had high praise for that man.

Dorazzio gets called into question by the lack of protection for numerous BC Lion QB's during his tenure as the OL coach. In addition to that, the Lions run game more often than not is stagnant at best for entire seasons. Finally, there have been way too many topend picks by the Lions that never see the light of day. Now you may place blame on the selection of contenders, but at some point there has to be a player that gets the "guru" enough to be counted on to play starting minutes. While I wouldn't say it is bashing level, it is a calling out to a consistent problem that the Lions have only two constants on....Wally and Dorazio. Questions have to be placed at somebodies feet.

You've forgotten the dearly departed Jacques Chapdelaine......his play calling played a significant role in an ineffective ground game.

But.....as the saying goes....you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.....and IMHO, the Lions have drafted a number of sow's ear over the years......and as has been mentioned, the addition of Kelly Bates seems to have turned the tide in that regard.

[WestCoastJoe]

One key point here is that things are looking up for our O Line.

(Getting away a bit from a referendum on Dan Dorazio, admittedly a very hard working, dedicated professional of long service with Wally Buono. Dan D is a man with both fans and critics, same as with any coach and player. People are not going to change their views.)

We have seen better drafting. Matt Norman. KIrby Fabien. And it seems very likely with Hunter Steward.

We have seen opportunities for young guys to show their stuff.

We have seen seemingly better development with the young guys.

We have seen success with young guys starting, as with Norman and Fabien.

There is the possibility of eventually signing Danny Watkins. This is no sure thing.

There is the possibility of building our NI O Line depth with this year's draft.

And IMO, Dean Valli and Patrick Kabongo still provide good play, as in our stretch drive last year.
..........

As noted numerous times, we have a considerable number of NI needs: D Line, O Line, DB/Safety, RB depth, LB. IMO our NI talent and depth at present is not at the top of the league, with the possible exception of NI receivers, where we have very good depth and talent. And with Andrew Harris we have an absolutely top level running back of any nationality, IMO. But to keep the ratio flexible, we need NI depth behind him.

[pennw]

I don't want to see Wally trade up. I think we can do well enough anyway.

D Line. O Line. DB. RB. LB. We do have needs.

Somehow i don't see drafting linebackers as a priority , unless we have a starting spot available for a NI LBer . I don't see any of our 3 imports not starting , so doesn't that relegate any drafted LBs to special teams duty and only back-ups on D ? I would prefer our top picks to go toward OL and DL , then a top DB after that .

[South Pender]

Somehow i don't see drafting linebackers as a priority , unless we have a starting spot available for a NI LBer . I don't see any of our 3 imports not starting , so doesn't that relegate any drafted LBs to special teams duty and only back-ups on D ? I would prefer our top picks to go toward OL and DL , then a top DB after that .

Probably just a SAM backer (or nickelback) to replace Banks.

[JohnHenry]

Somehow i don't see drafting linebackers as a priority , unless we have a starting spot available for a NI LBer . I don't see any of our 3 imports not starting , so doesn't that relegate any drafted LBs to special teams duty and only back-ups on D ? I would prefer our top picks to go toward OL and DL , then a top DB after that .

Probably just a SAM backer (or nickelback) to replace Banks.

That will probably be L-J Shell's job to lose.

[Rammer]

Count me in as well. I have yet to hear someone say anything bad about Dorazio. Angus Reid had high praise for that man.

Dorazzio gets called into question by the lack of protection for numerous BC Lion QB's during his tenure as the OL coach. In addition to that, the Lions run game more often than not is stagnant at best for entire seasons. Finally, there have been way too many topend picks by the Lions that never see the light of day. Now you may place blame on the selection of contenders, but at some point there has to be a player that gets the "guru" enough to be counted on to play starting minutes. While I wouldn't say it is bashing level, it is a calling out to a consistent problem that the Lions have only two constants on....Wally and Dorazio. Questions have to be placed at somebodies feet.

You've forgotten the dearly departed Jacques Chapdelaine......his play calling played a significant role in an ineffective ground game.

But.....as the saying goes....you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.....and IMHO, the Lions have drafted a number of sow's ear over the years......and as has been mentioned, the addition of Kelly Bates seems to have turned the tide in that regard.

The problem I have with the 'sow's ear' concept, is that other teams seemed to find value in some of our OL that couldn't cut the mustard here to start. But I do agree the stable of 2003 - 2012 selections never seemed to be the cream of the crop, even though the Lions had many top selections and the need for one or three OL on any given year to step it up. Also true that JC earns much of the OL criticism to land on his lap, as his idea of an offense certainly wasn't considering the OL's strengths vs weaknesses.

[Shi Zi Mi]

The problem I have with the 'sow's ear' concept, is that other teams seemed to find value in some of our OL that couldn't cut the mustard here to start. But I do agree the stable of 2003 - 2012 selections never seemed to be the cream of the crop, even though the Lions had many top selections and the need for one or three OL on any given year to step it up. Also true that JC earns much of the OL criticism to land on his lap, as his idea of an offense certainly wasn't considering the OL's strengths vs weaknesses.

Using Hambone's list:

2005 - Pierre Tremblay (17th overall), Karl Ortmanns (52nd)
2006 - Dean Valli (6th overall), Jon Hameister-Reis (15th) - injuries, not lack of development derailed what could've been a very solid CFL career as a starter for JHR.
2007 - Andrew Jones (32nd), Kyle Kirkwood (40th)
2008 - Justin Sorensen (5th), Hubert Buydens (46th)
2009 - Matt Morencie (21st) - wasn't he one of those guys who was returning to school only to get raided by another team?
2010 - Danny Watkins (4th), Adam Baboulas (41st) - Watkins of course went the NFL route but who was to know a year later he'd vault into a 1st rd NFL pick. Lions still might get something here which is a lot more than the Eagles can say.
2011 - Yannick Sage (37th)
2012 - Kirby Fabien (7th), Matt Norman (22nd)
2013 - Hunter Steward (7th), Matt Albright (43nd) - lost in expansion draft before we could find out if he'd develop or not

Andrew Jones has been with Toronto until this off season - unable to win a starting position.
Justin Sorenson started at centre for the Bombers who made no effort to resign him.....IMHO, he started because they had no one else.
Adam Baboulas signed elsewhere this off season.....unable to win a starting job with the Lions.
Matt Albright looks like the best of this group and will probably develop into a starter.....we just couldn't protect him in the expansion draft.

Aside from the players still with the Lions, everyone else never played a down in the regular season.

IMHO, that's a pretty substantial group of sow's ears.

[WestCoastJoe]

In considering our NI O Line roster over the years, I think one could look at these areas of responsibility, amongst others.

* Draft choices ... Whose blueprint was followed? Who made the selections? Personnel people obviously. But I would suggest the O Line coach was a significant part of the process.

* Development ... Skills development. Progress. Becoming a starter. Achieving recognition as an all star, etc. Or lack of development.

* Running Game ... This is between the OC and the O Line coach. Play design. Game planning. Play calling. Skills building. Teamwork.

* Pass Protection ... Same as with the running game, except that teaching pass blocking as a skill is pretty much at the top of the list for an O Line coach. Along with teaching run blocking skills. Along with building the complicated teamwork that is required.

Since 2003, we see that draftee Dean Valli became a starter. Draftee Jon Hameister-Ries became a starter. Draftee Andrew Jones was slated as a starter, but got injured. That was pretty much it for draftees prior to us drafting Matt Norman and Kirby Fabien. The "draft and development" cupboard was pretty bare for much of the time. We brought in guys from other teams.

As noted a few times, our selection of O Line draft choices seems to have picked up considerably since Kelly Bates took on much responsibility for our drafts.

As I have noted, things are looking up for our O Line. We have some nice talent now amongst the Non Imports. We have some young guys getting a chance to start and show well, as with Norman and Fabien. We have Hunter Steward in the Lions' Den. We may draft another O Lineman this year. We are trying to sign Danny Watkins, and may succeed if his love of football is re-kindled.

[pennw]

Somehow i don't see drafting linebackers as a priority , unless we have a starting spot available for a NI LBer . I don't see any of our 3 imports not starting , so doesn't that relegate any drafted LBs to special teams duty and only back-ups on D ? I would prefer our top picks to go toward OL and DL , then a top DB after that .

Probably just a SAM backer (or nickelback) to replace Banks.

So would you pick a LB ahead of a top OL or DL prospect then ?

[South Pender]

So would you pick a LB ahead of a top OL or DL prospect then ?

No.

[OV - 54:40]

Somehow i don't see drafting linebackers as a priority , unless we have a starting spot available for a NI LBer . I don't see any of our 3 imports not starting , so doesn't that relegate any drafted LBs to special teams duty and only back-ups on D ? I would prefer our top picks to go toward OL and DL , then a top DB after that .

Probably just a SAM backer (or nickelback) to replace Banks.

So would you pick a LB ahead of a top OL or DL prospect then ?

Seems to me - there are at least a couple of very good safety prospects this draft = an area of Lions need where a draft pick could come in and be an instant quality starter / upgrade (see Mike Edem for the Als last year) - I'm thinking either Andrew Lue (Queens) or Antoine Pruneau (Montreal) - both accomplished CIS all-star defenders, backed by measureables (size, speed, agility - from the Combine) (and Adam Thibault is another top rated DB, but IMO mostly based on speed / testing #s - he couldn't hold the starting S job at Laval last season and has little proven DB experience),

SO - Wally could think of using the top pick (#5 i think it is) on one of these good safety prospects, OR - use the top pick on O-Line or D-Line help and hope one of the top S prospects, is still on the board with the Lions next pick (a bit of a gamble i guess).

Very nice Lions draft scenario - get local guy Goosen with their 1st pick (could maybe pan-out as a starting C right away, and allowing Norman to slide back to his natural OG position, or at least a great young O-Line prospect), and then able to get either of Lue or Pruneau at #14 - and then maybe a starting safety (right away or soon) = 2 possible starters with the 1st 2 picks.

[WestCoastJoe]

Seems to me - there are at least a couple of very good safety prospects this draft = an area of Lions need where a draft pick could come in and be an instant quality starter / upgrade (see Mike Edem for the Als last year) - I'm thinking either Andrew Lue (Queens) or Antoine Pruneau (Montreal) - both accomplished CIS all-star defenders, backed by measureables (size, speed, agility - from the Combine) (and Adam Thibault is another top rated DB, but IMO mostly based on speed / testing #s - he couldn't hold the starting S job at Laval last season and has little proven DB experience),

SO - Wally could think of using the top pick (#5 i think it is) on one of these good safety prospects, OR - use the top pick on O-Line or D-Line help and hope one of the top S prospects, is still on the board with the Lions next pick (a bit of a gamble i guess).

Very nice Lions draft scenario - get local guy Goosen with their 1st pick (could maybe pan-out as a starting C right away, and allowing Norman to slide back to his natural OG position, or at least a great young O-Line prospect), and then able to get either of Lue or Pruneau at #14 - and then maybe a starting safety (right away or soon) = 2 possible starters with the 1st 2 picks.

Good info, OV..

I would not mind a DB/Safety pick first round. I agree that Goosen also might be there for us at #5.

You follow Canadian college football more closely than most, including me.

How do you rate the Defensive Line prospects this year? I think that might be our biggest need, but I am not sure the value is there for a pick at #5.

[OV - 54:40]

Seems to me - there are at least a couple of very good safety prospects this draft = an area of Lions need where a draft pick could come in and be an instant quality starter / upgrade (see Mike Edem for the Als last year) - I'm thinking either Andrew Lue (Queens) or Antoine Pruneau (Montreal) - both accomplished CIS all-star defenders, backed by measureables (size, speed, agility - from the Combine) (and Adam Thibault is another top rated DB, but IMO mostly based on speed / testing #s - he couldn't hold the starting S job at Laval last season and has little proven DB experience),

SO - Wally could think of using the top pick (#5 i think it is) on one of these good safety prospects, OR - use the top pick on O-Line or D-Line help and hope one of the top S prospects, is still on the board with the Lions next pick (a bit of a gamble i guess).

Very nice Lions draft scenario - get local guy Goosen with their 1st pick (could maybe pan-out as a starting C right away, and allowing Norman to slide back to his natural OG position, or at least a great young O-Line prospect), and then able to get either of Lue or Pruneau at #14 - and then maybe a starting safety (right away or soon) = 2 possible starters with the 1st 2 picks.

Good info, OV..

I would not mind a DB/Safety pick first round. I agree that Goosen also might be there for us at #5.

You follow Canadian college football more closely than most, including me.

How do you rate the Defensive Line prospects this year? I think that might be our biggest need, but I am not sure the value is there for a pick at #5.

Hey Joe (where you goin' with that gun in your hand ;o)) - not sure i follow CIS ball more than most - but i do follow it quite a bit and have respect for the talent there.

As far as D-Line: at DT - there are a few real good prospects IMO - Gill (Manitoba), Fletcher (Acadia) and Quinn Smith (Concordia - and he may have moved up lots after the E-Camp - big (300 plus), athletic tester and reportedly did very well in the one - on - ones) - one of those guys might be very good picks, and maybe worth the Lions's 1st choice ? At DE - also a few good prospects IMO: Ainsworth tested very well - strong, quick, athletic; Menard (Montreal - strong (led the bench) and accomplished Q D-Lineman who has been an all-star at both DE & DT there); and maybe a couple of sleeper type late round picks in Romick (Saint Mary's) and local guy Roper (SFU); HOWEVER - Canadian/NI DEs rarely get much shot at real playing time in the current CFL - so IMO a waste of a pick to use a top one or two type choice on a guy who is viewed as a back-up only or a special teamer mostly - different story if you are serious about giving the guy a real shot to compete for playing time at DE (doubtful) - not sure worth a top pick, but might be smart to grab one of those guys if available in the mid to later rounds and maybe they surprise to be in the mix for real at DE.