CFL expansion to Halifax? -- TSN Staff

[Hambone]

To me the idea of Quebec City seems so much more logical as this to me makes sense. NHL did fine there before the clown in the chair Bettman) decided to move teams to the Sun Belt where that has hardly worked out. I for the life of me cannot see how the NHL would not want Seattle or even Portland - historic venues for the old Western Hockey League I grew up on where older or marginal NHLers played albeit not to large crowds but where they have junior hockey and a fan base. Phoenix yes was in that league but not a huge solid market IIRC. Now I can't for life of me understand why they don't move mountains to get into Quebec City unless it is due to the Als but how does that square with teams in Toronto, Hamilton and now back in Ottawa? Three is Ontario.

The NHL was doing anything but fine in Quebec when the Nords moved to Denver. Les Nordique were doing OK putting derrieres in the seats in their final years but they were still bleeding red ink profusely. They were the smallest NHL market playing out of one of, if not the smallest, NHL venues; the then 45 year old 15399 seat Colisee. Tack on the exchange rate of that time and they simply were no longer financially viable in the economic environment they had to operate in. They'd gone to the Quebec provincial government looking for a financial bailout plus a new publically funded arena. Lots of discussion happened but in the end the government wouldn't prop them up and neither was an arena going to be built. It would've been political suicide to fly those lead balloons over the voting populace given the sentiment was that the taxpayer would merely be subsidizing million dollar hockey players. At that time the Flames, Oilers and Jets had also gone to the taxpayer looking for handouts to keep afloat. None received anything. The Flames and Oilers barely survived and the Jets also went south. Ottawa came in a couple years earlier and had an ownership change before they even played.

If Quebec was to stay in the NHL they'd have to suck it up and continue playing out of Le Colisee losing millions every year. In hindsight it was likely to only get worse as the loonie dropped even further into the toilet a couple years after they were in Denver. Aubut decided to cut his losses and sold out to COMSAT, owners of the Denver Nuggets, who then moved the team. I'm trying to remember the sentiments at the time but seems to me while there was a lot of public outcry and Save the Jets campaigns etc in Winnipeg I don't recall there being much of that happening in Quebec. The irony about the Sun Belt teams is the expansion fees collected from San Jose, Florida, Tampa Bay, Anaheim and Ottawa who all came on board between 1991 and 1993 probably acted like life support for Les Nordique and the Jets. Without those fees those teams may not have survived as long as they did in those markets. They may also have been the difference between the Flames and Oilers staying and moving or folding.

[Hambone]

That's true, but there is another way to look at this. Let's compare the three maritime provinces, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and PEI (and leave Newfoundland out of it, given the distance the latter is from the other three and the inability to drive to the other three) with Saskatchewan. First, those three maritime provinces have a total population of about 1,817,000 compared with 1,114,000 in Saskatchewan. Second, the total area of these three maritime provinces is about 134,000 sq. km., vs about 652,000 sq. km. for Saskatchewan. This means that the driving distances are much shorter from cities and towns in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and PEI to Halifax than they are from many cities and towns in Saskatchewan to Regina. In fact, Halifax is within about 5-6 hours driving distance of all 1,817,000 maritimers and closer to cities like Moncton, St. John, and Charlottetown. Third, the host city of a maritime-province team, Halifax, has a population of close to 300,000 vs 179,000 in Regina. My point is that, if folks in the maritimes could get stoked about pro football (and the CIS teams there in the Atlantic University Football Conference , at Acadia, Mount Allison, St. FX, and St. Mary's, seem to draw crowds), I believe a CFL team in Halifax could draw acceptable crowds to a 20K-25K-seat stadium (the size of the new Tim Horton's Field in Hamilton and Molson Stadium). That's a demographic argument for the CFL in the maritimes, but getting a suitable stadium built remains.

The idea of another team in Southern Ontario is, in my opinion, a non-starter, even from an economic perspective. We now have three teams in one province; adding a fourth wouldn't, in my view, be acceptable to the rest of the country.

The question is how willing are Maritimers to travel? Attitudes about thing like that are very different in different parts of the country. In Saskatchewan and most of western Canada folks don't bat an eye about having to drive 3 or 4 hours or more to go somewhere on a weekend, especially if they don't live in the middle of the urban core of the biggest cities. But in other parts of the country the willingness to get up and go may not be there. Do people in Sydney, Fredricton, Moncton, Saint John or Charlottetown say hey there's something happening in Halifax this weekend! Let's go! Or do they say hey that's more than 2 hours away, that's too far?

[Toppy Vann]

I am surprised if there are not qualified Canadian NIs for 10 teams. If the league grows and revenues grew, there is no question there'd be more NIs playing at home vs being marginal in the NFL and there seem to quite a few of those. More jobs will attract more players.

To me the idea of Quebec City seems so much more logical as this to me makes sense. NHL did fine there before the clown in the chair Bettman) decided to move teams to the Sun Belt where that has hardly worked out. I for the life of me cannot see how the NHL would not want Seattle or even Portland - historic venues for the old Western Hockey League I grew up on where older or marginal NHLers played albeit not to large crowds but where they have junior hockey and a fan base. Phoenix yes was in that league but not a huge solid market IIRC. Now I can't for life of me understand why they don't move mountains to get into Quebec City unless it is due to the Als but how does that square with teams in Toronto, Hamilton and now back in Ottawa? Three is Ontario.

The NHL was doing anything but fine in Quebec when the Nords moved to Denver. Les Nordique were doing OK putting derrieres in the seats in their final years but they were still bleeding red ink profusely. They were the smallest NHL market playing out of one of, if not the smallest, NHL venues; the then 45 year old 15399 seat Colisee. Tack on the exchange rate of that time and they simply were no longer financially viable in the economic environment they had to operate in. They'd gone to the Quebec provincial government looking for a financial bailout plus a new publically funded arena. Lots of discussion happened but in the end the government wouldn't prop them up and neither was an arena going to be built. It would've been political suicide to fly those lead balloons over the voting populace given the sentiment was that the taxpayer would merely be subsidizing million dollar hockey players. At that time the Flames, Oilers and Jets had also gone to the taxpayer looking for handouts to keep afloat. None received anything. The Flames and Oilers barely survived and the Jets also went south. Ottawa came in a couple years earlier and had an ownership change before they even played.

If Quebec was to stay in the NHL they'd have to suck it up and continue playing out of Le Colisee losing millions every year. In hindsight it was likely to only get worse as the loonie dropped even further into the toilet a couple years after they were in Denver. Aubut decided to cut his losses and sold out to COMSAT, owners of the Denver Nuggets, who then moved the team. I'm trying to remember the sentiments at the time but seems to me while there was a lot of public outcry and Save the Jets campaigns etc in Winnipeg I don't recall there being much of that happening in Quebec. The irony about the Sun Belt teams is the expansion fees collected from San Jose, Florida, Tampa Bay, Anaheim and Ottawa who all came on board between 1991 and 1993 probably acted like life support for Les Nordique and the Jets. Without those fees those teams may not have survived as long as they did in those markets. They may also have been the difference between the Flames and Oilers staying and moving or folding.

But you missed one thing - the most critical. All Canadian teams were being hammered as the dollar fell to the 70s IIRC and shortly after the move to become the Colorado Rockies. Denver makes sense as it was part of the old WHL and they actually have snow and cold and ice in that state. It was clear they want the NHL out of Canada and would do whatever to achieve it.

What happened after the move was this:

Afterwards the NHL implemented the Canadian Assistance Plan, a revenue-sharing agreement that saw the league provide financial support for the three remaining small-market Canadian teams in order to have them remain in their cities to protect the NHL's lucrative Canadian television contracts.

If the plan was not to keep the NHL there this would have happened sooner. Nordiques were a challenge too as the Canadiens had all of Quebec historically as their team.

[Jim Mullin]

Here's the latest: http://www.herald.ns.ca/novascotia/1185 ... ioner-says

I honestly think we'll be waiting another 50 years for something to happen in that drunken ramshackle backwater. Check out the comments section.

[notahomer]

IIRC, there was already a thread for "EndZones and Border Wars" but I can't find it, so I posted this in here.........

http://www.nsnews.com/entertainment/boo ... n-1.784750


I read this book and enjoyed it. There is a lot of Lions focus. Considering the main thread of the book, I was surprised at how much Lions stuff was in the book but Wiles is a local writer. ANd of course, as the book notes (and we all knew) the Lions were an important piece of that first Grey Cup with an American team.

I'd give this book a . Learned a little bit about some of the US teams including Calvillo's start in the CFL. Lots of the book, for me, wasn't so much LEARNING, but having my memories restoked by Wiles writing. Certainly the time/effort he put into the pieces of how BAD things were at that time for the CFL and how WELL it seems to have recovered since then, are also fun to read. Again, very little I hadn't heard before but its food for thought nonetheless.

[Toppy Vann]

IIRC, there was already a thread for "EndZones and Border Wars" but I can't find it, so I posted this in here.........

http://www.nsnews.com/entertainment/boo ... n-1.784750


I read this book and enjoyed it. There is a lot of Lions focus. Considering the main thread of the book, I was surprised at how much Lions stuff was in the book but Wiles is a local writer. ANd of course, as the book notes (and we all knew) the Lions were an important piece of that first Grey Cup with an American team.

I'd give this book a . Learned a little bit about some of the US teams including Calvillo's start in the CFL. Lots of the book, for me, wasn't so much LEARNING, but having my memories restoked by Wiles writing. Certainly the time/effort he put into the pieces of how BAD things were at that time for the CFL and how WELL it seems to have recovered since then, are also fun to read. Again, very little I hadn't heard before but its food for thought nonetheless.

The book review and we know the author from the local media suggests too that the book is worth a read. Guys like Wally Buono who have been here a very long time in the CFL know the league and I suspect that inarguably this is correct as Bill Baker "the undertaker" said they never replaced the loss of the beer money and had to do something.

"We needed the money," B.C. Lions GM Wally Buono tells Willes in the book. "It bought time for everyone. You can say what you want about Larry, but I guarantee you that money allowed the Stampeders to survive." - See more at: http://www.nsnews.com/entertainment/boo ... 7wuoF.dpuf

As to the CFL in Halifax - I still cannot fathom why Quebec City would not make good sense. I assume they want coast to coast and if Que. City were in they'd likely need to find two more teams to make a balanced league again that includes Halifax.

[Hambone]

[s to the CFL in Halifax - I still cannot fathom why Quebec City would not make good sense. I assume they want coast to coast and if Que. City were in they'd likely need to find two more teams to make a balanced league again that includes Halifax.

It's very difficult to pick one over the other. Regardless there needs to be some form of an ownership group, be it private or community owned, move to the forefront. And there has to be solid desire with some form of government backing to build a CFL viable facility. Without both there is zero chance of a team east of Montreal. I have no sense of where that might happen first but my gut feel is it's more likely to happen in the Maritimes than Quebec City.

[OV - 54:40]

I'd dispute that there are enough talented NI's to support 10 teams.

And I would disagree with you, most vehemently at that, and agree with WCJ on that subject.

[Shi Zi Mi]

I'd dispute that there are enough talented NI's to support 10 teams.

And I would disagree with you, most vehemently at that, and agree with WCJ on that subject.

There's a big difference between quality and quantity......are there NI players available? absolutely......are there enough QUALITY NI players to fill all the mandatory starting positions? how about all the backup positions?.......IMHO, the answer to those 2 questions is a resounding NO.....and you only have to look at the Lions offensive line in 2013 for proof.

[WestCoastJoe]

I'd dispute that there are enough talented NI's to support 10 teams.

And I would disagree with you, most vehemently at that, and agree with WCJ on that subject.

Lots of Canadian colleges. Lots of big guys. Better trained. Good competition. It seems to me the quality and depth of the draft is better and better over time.

A team only needs seven NI starters.

Whatever the talent level is, that sets the bar for the entire league. You find 7 NI starters, and 16 talented imports. This issue is a bit of a hard thing to measure and evaluate, but it seems to me that the Non Import pool could support 10 CFL teams right now, without much of a dropoff in the quality of the games. Your import talent has to be top notch. No excuses there: recruit well, judge well.

It is a judgment call. And it is an intuitive call. My feeling is there are enough talented NIs for 10 teams.

Let's say 3 NI O Linemen each = 30.

One NI receiver each = 10.

One D Linemen each = 10.

One DB = 10.

One LB each = 10.

Or 4 O Linemen.

Or a FB, platooning with a receiver.

That is just 70 NIs for the 10 teams as starters. And then the backups. To me it is no different than asking, back in the 1960s, if there were enough players for 32 NFL teams. As the NFL grew, they found the players. Watered down product? Maybe. Hockey, baseball and basketball might be somewhat different as we see other nations sending players to those pro leagues.

Not saying these NI guys are on an even keel with imports, but they can play well enough. And quite a few of them are every bit as good as the imports.

So one could say I have faith in the NI talent being produced. I see it as growing. And I see the CFL as not that big a league. It seems to me that 10 teams could field competitive lineups with the 7 Non Imports. With depth behind them.

Just IMO ... I don't think one can prove this issue either way.

[OV - 54:40]

The Rough Riders just won the GC in playing/starting more NIs than all other CFL teams.

The NI talent pool available to the CFL is - IMO - vastly under-rated and under-valued - in a league that prefers handing playing time more to import players; and CFL rosters now are made up more of import players, when in the CFL past - of great football - there were more NIs in the league. The NI talent pool is larger now - with more and better CIS programs and lots of Canadian players getting good US college ball training.

I see yearly - after the CFL draft - very good Canadian players (mostly from CIS ball, but there are also some good Junior ball players out there - see Andrew Harris for example and there are others in the CFL) not drafted and/or get zero CFL TC shot to compete for a roster spot - and at all positions, but this is magnified at certain positions where CFL decision makers prefer playing import players (QB the obvious glaring example). Current/recent very good CFL players like Jerome Messam, Rob Bagg, Andre Durie, Rene Parades, Rory Kohlert, Burk Dales, Kyle Koch, for example, were not drafted at all by the supposed CFL personnel experts who often whine or complain about lack of "NI talent" or "depth" - these types have been successful with their campaign to get more of their guys - American players - added to CFL rosters at the expense of Canadian players ... in the "radically canadian" (sic) CFL ???

And there is no "proof" or facts here, IMO - it's all a matter of opinion. And IMO, the calibre of play in the CFL would not be negatively affected by having more NI players on CFL rosters, and the CFL would be just fine with a ten team league with more NI players on rosters than there is now. And those who believe the CFL would be better with less Canadian players or that there just isn't that much NI talent out there for CFL teams are entitled to their opinions too - just realize it is a matter of opinion and don't be pompous enough to state it like is some sort of fact; and realize who is making CFL personnel decision is a signifigant factor here.

[B.C.FAN]

Without getting into the quality argument, the contrasting numbers in the player pool are astounding. U.S. colleges churn out something like 15,000 American players each year. The CIS and NCAA produce, at best, a few hundred non-import players each year.

[Shi Zi Mi]

But quality is the issue. If you see Kabongo and Valli as quality starters on the Lions oline.....then there are plenty of quality NIs available......I do not.

The facts are that over the course of the entire season, the Lions were unable to find quality NI olineman to replace these 2......the result was no run game for a good portion of the year, hurried passing game and an injured Travis Lulay. Sorry if that sounds pompous...but I see it as being realistic.

[OV - 54:40]

But quality is the issue. If you see Kabongo and Valli as quality starters on the Lions oline.....then there are plenty of quality NIs available......I do not.

The facts are that over the course of the entire season, the Lions were unable to find quality NI olineman to replace these 2......the result was no run game for a good portion of the year, hurried passing game and an injured Travis Lulay. Sorry if that sounds pompous...but I see it as being realistic.

Playing and/or sticking with mediocre players (at any position or nationlity) is on the coaching staff, and NOT to be blamed on the talent pool available to the CFL.

And yep, everybody gets that the American talent pool is way bigger than the NI/Canadian one, so need to quote obvious population or college ball program differences. BUT the CFL does not have anything even close to unrestriced access to the American one (ever heard of the NFL?), so that factor, that is always dutifully trotted out when this topic comes up, is way over-stated.

[Hambone]

I'd dispute that there are enough talented NI's to support 10 teams.

And I would disagree with you, most vehemently at that, and agree with WCJ on that subject.

There's a big difference between quality and quantity......are there NI players available? absolutely......are there enough QUALITY NI players to fill all the mandatory starting positions? how about all the backup positions?.......IMHO, the answer to those 2 questions is a resounding NO.....and you only have to look at the Lions offensive line in 2013 for proof.

I think the grassroots football systems in Canada have greatly improved in the past couple of decades and are producing more quality and quantity than ever before. I think they are more capable of provding sufficient quantity and quality of NI to support 10 teams today in 2014 than they were capable of providing to support 8 teams back at the turn of the millenium.