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WestCoastJoe
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Some little threads on large themes filed here.

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=442375
ARGONAUTS COULD SOON BE SOLD TO MLSE OR TANENBAUM
David Naylor
1/28/2014 10:23:37 AM

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The Toronto Argonauts could be sold within a matter of weeks, either to Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment or its chairman, Larry Tanenbaum, according to multiple sources.

Talks between David Braley and MLSE have heated up in recent months to the point that the MLSE board, which includes Tanenbaum as well as representatives from Bell and Rogers, was asked to vote during December on acquiring the CFL team.

While the board could not agree on the matter, there remains the possibility that MLSE could revisit buying the team or that Tanenbaum himself may purchase it.

An Argo purchase by MLSE or Tanenbaum makes potential sense from both ends of the deal.

From the Argos perspective, the team is in desperate need of a new practice facility, having been told by the University of Toronto that its Mississauga campus can no longer house the football team. With three months until the opening of CFL training camps, a sale would presumably open the door to the Argos taking up residence at the KIA Training Ground, the practice home of Toronto FC which includes three full-size grass fields, four artificial fields and a 40,000 square foot field house in Downsview.

Being sold to Tanenbaum or MLSE would make the Argos part of the plan for a redesigned BMO Field, thus solving their need to build a new home from scratch when they vacate Rogers Centre after the 2017 season. MLSE president and CEO Tim Leiweke has stated several times in recent months that the Argos could factor into future plans at BMO, a position in stark contrast to that of his predecessors, who saw the facility as soccer-only.

From the perspective of Tanenbaum or MLSE, owning the Argos could be a chip towards the goal of securing a National Football League team, based on the NFL wanting assurance that moving a team to Toronto would not kill the Argos or the CFL.

"(Tanenbaum) has always had an affection for them," said former MLSE president and CEO Richard Peddie. "Everything I'm hearing is that that the NFL is telling them that if you want an NFL team, you better make sure the Argos are okay. I don't think it's out of the realm that he may do it."

As well, having the Argos as a second tenant at BMO Field could help MLSE's drive to secure investment from government to redevelop the stadium, which is a publicly-owned facility operated by MLSE exclusively for soccer at this time.

"I've got to believe that they're thinking of the Argos in that facility," said Peddie. "Can you design a stadium with moveable sections and not lose the intimacy? Yes, you probably can."

The Argonauts are currently owned by Hamilton businessman David Braley, who has been exploring options for a new stadium in the Greater Toronto Area in recent months.
Though the Argonauts have consistently lost money at Rogers Centre, it is believed their business model could continue to improve with the right arrangement at BMO, combined with increased revenues from the CFL's new television deal which kicks in this season.

This isn't the first time MLSE has looked at a potential Argo purchase. The Argos had been offered up to MLSE when the team was owned by David Cynamon and Howard Sololowski, who sold to David Braley in February of 2010.

However, the ownership of MLSE and many of the dynamics within the city's professional sports scene have changed since those days, most notably with Lieweke's arrival and the notion of trying to land an NFL team.
In November, reports surfaced of Tanenbaum, Lieweke and rock star Jon Bon Jovi teaming up to pursue a future relocation of the Buffalo Bills to Toronto.
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WestCoastJoe
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That is a twist.

A cynic might say that Tanenbaum does not give a shoot about the CFL. And I might agree.

NFL to Toronto? Securing the strength and longevity of the Argo franchise might be the key to getting NFL approval of a franchise in Toronto.

Could the arrangement work?

NFL in TO would not necessarily damage the Argos or the CFL. Maybe. Don't really know. It could conceivably grow the CFL at the grass roots level.

In any case, MLSE and Tanenbaum still have NFL envy.

No NFL envy for me in the last few years. I started as a fan of Joe Kapp and the Lions. Gradually morphed over to the NFL, with a bad case of seeing it as superior to the "little, old CFL." Then with Don Matthews, and even Vic Rapp (both under GM Bobby Ackles), that started to change. Now I once again prefer the CFL. The players not making millions of dollars. The players so accessible, so involved in the community, so down to earth, without the huge egos, not blinded by their own "brilliance." (We admire athletes, but do they do as much for humanity as other fields of work? Are they more valuable to a society than engineers or doctors?) The CFL skills are IMO comparable to the NFL guys, with some difference in the size of the athletes. We have seen NFL guys who can't cut it in the CFL. We have seen guys star in the CFL and go down and star in the NFL. Same game. Same skills. Same instincts. Maybe the guys in the NFL pass more rigorous vetting and culling, as with the Right Stuff NASA program, and Top Gun vetting.

For me ... CFL #1, NFL #2. That is just a personal bias.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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I don't see how MLSE owning the Argos would protect the Argos if the NFL comes to Toronto. I do see that the financial failure of the Bills in TO shows that a NFL team in TO is more about an owner's ego than a sound business decision. Toronto's NFL fans have spoken with their wallets but sitting on their wallets.

The Bills in TO series was a testing of the market and it proved what I have always maintained: Support for the NFL in TO is a mile wide but only an inch deep. Tanenbaum would need to come up with about a 1/2 Billion dollars to build a NFL stadium as Rogers Centre is too small, plus the franchise fee and oh yeah, the NFL does not allow corporate ownership so it has to be a billionaire not a corporation that comes up with the money.
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I'm not certain that the poor showing in Toronto when Buffalo has played there necessarily indicates no NFL desire in the metro area. This is a market involving 5 million people, and interest in having their own NFL team might greatly exceed watching a weak NFL team play there once a year. I just don't know; I could be wrong about this. I do, however, think that an NFL team in TO would be a tough break for the Argos and the CFL.

I hope the Argos deal goes through if for no other reason than we'll be back to not having one person owning two teams in the league. Looks bad....
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"(Tanenbaum) has always had an affection for them," said former MLSE president and CEO Richard Peddie.

Wow, that's a mouthful. All the moves Tannenbaum has made towrd the CFL since 2008 have been adversarial.

If this deal is actually made, it's the best possible under the circumstances. But it also lays bare Braley's rhetoric about selling one of his two teams to someone who has a love and understanding of the Canadian game. Tannenbaum has never publicly demonstrated those qualities.

It makes me think that the next logical move for Lions ownership is to re-engage the Aquilinis. They are civic-minded (at least in terms of enhancing their profile) and have a delivery system of exposing the Lions to a wider base of fans and companies across the province.
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TheLionKing
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Jim Mullin wrote:"(Tanenbaum) has always had an affection for them," said former MLSE president and CEO Richard Peddie.

Wow, that's a mouthful. All the moves Tannenbaum has made towrd the CFL since 2008 have been adversarial.

If this deal is actually made, it's the best possible under the circumstances. But it also lays bare Braley's rhetoric about selling one of his two teams to someone who has a love and understanding of the Canadian game. Tannenbaum has never publicly demonstrated those qualities.

It makes me think that the next logical move for Lions ownership is to re-engage the Aquilinis. They are civic-minded (at least in terms of enhancing their profile) and have a delivery system of exposing the Lions to a wider base of fans and companies across the province.
My thought as well. Not convinced it's a good move
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notahomer
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This kind of stuff was chatted about by a panel on NFL network earlier this week....and it sounded positive too.

IIRC, I heard even more chitter/chatter on Bob McCown's tv/radio show too. Just get the impression that the NFL DOES NOT WANT TO PUT THE CFL and/or a Toronto CFL franchise in jeopardy.... I know its just talk and why do they know? True, I guess.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I really DID NOT see the Lions surviviing a one point in their history AND I WAS WRONG, thankfully. I think Toronto is in the same way. Sure right now, it may look bleak, where do they play etc... but who knows. WIth time and the right owner(s) who knows where this team and this league ends up. Regardless, it would be nice to have an owner NOT owning two teams. I thank Braley for doing it but sure hope it can get into good hands......
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There is no way an NFL team in Toronto isn't a death knell for the Argos. Like or not the CFL would be a backwater if it doesn't have a Toronto team despite the fact that fans in that city have failed to really support their team in recent good years - at least not the way you'd think they'd support a winner.

I would love to see the CFL in Quebec City as that province is a hot bed of college and minor football and Ontario supports two teams. The Moncton stuff or wherever to me should come later on.

The upside of this group buying is financial strength but is the downside not a lot of loyalty to the CFL? We shall see if this goes ahead. I am sure Braley will make sure it goes to trusted hands.
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Jim Mullin
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Expansion to Quebec?

I can tell you first hand that Stade PEPS in Quebec City is nowhere near professional standards.

I can also tell you why they stopped at 12,000 seats. The university and business leaders have no interest in bringing a CFL team there. That's an all-Quebec national team there in an all-Quebec national league. The CFL can't duplicate what they have there.
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Jim Mullin wrote:"(Tanenbaum) has always had an affection for them," said former MLSE president and CEO Richard Peddie.

Wow, that's a mouthful. All the moves Tannenbaum has made towrd the CFL since 2008 have been adversarial.

If this deal is actually made, it's the best possible under the circumstances. But it also lays bare Braley's rhetoric about selling one of his two teams to someone who has a love and understanding of the Canadian game. Tannenbaum has never publicly demonstrated those qualities.

It makes me think that the next logical move for Lions ownership is to re-engage the Aquilinis. They are civic-minded (at least in terms of enhancing their profile) and have a delivery system of exposing the Lions to a wider base of fans and companies across the province.
There was scuttlebutt last year based on his 1040 Presidents' Series interview in August that Dennis Skulsky was organising an ownership group drawn from members of the Waterboys to take the team off DB's hands when the time comes. If the Aquilinis also become interested then this would probably be to the good. Two groups competing for the same asset would (in the public eye) enhance the perceived value of the asset.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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TSN report. I hope fans realize and remember what Bobby Ackles predicted if the NFL gets into Toronto - very much doom and gloom for the CFL. You think the CFL would still get the great TSN contract if they had an NFL team in Toronto? I don't think so.

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=442603

NFL FRANCHISE SURVEY SENT TO TORONTO CORPORATE COMMUNITY
It appears that due diligence is being done to bring an NFL franchise to Toronto.

In a letter received by TSN, members of the city's corporate community are being asked for feedback on the potential of an NFL franchise and stadium in the Greater Toronto Area.

The letter, which was sent from CSL International - a sports facility planning and advisory firm based in Texas - states that Toronto is "at the forefront of potential relocation markets" for the NFL.

While the letter also states that no decisions have been made regarding bringing an NFL team to Toronto, it includes a survey to assess how it may provide an "exciting experience for fans and the corporate community alike."

The letter did not specify whose interests were being represented.
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notahomer
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sj-roc wrote:There was scuttlebutt last year based on his 1040 Presidents' Series interview in August that Dennis Skulsky was organising an ownership group drawn from members of the Waterboys to take the team off DB's hands when the time comes. If the Aquilinis also become interested then this would probably be to the good. Two groups competing for the same asset would (in the public eye) enhance the perceived value of the asset.
This was repeated today in Dr Sport (Greg Douglas?) column today in the Sun. Skulsky is definitely interested......
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Toppy Vann wrote:TSN report. I hope fans realize and remember what Bobby Ackles predicted if the NFL gets into Toronto - very much doom and gloom for the CFL. You think the CFL would still get the great TSN contract if they had an NFL team in Toronto? I don't think so.

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=442603

NFL FRANCHISE SURVEY SENT TO TORONTO CORPORATE COMMUNITY
It appears that due diligence is being done to bring an NFL franchise to Toronto.

In a letter received by TSN, members of the city's corporate community are being asked for feedback on the potential of an NFL franchise and stadium in the Greater Toronto Area.

The letter, which was sent from CSL International - a sports facility planning and advisory firm based in Texas - states that Toronto is "at the forefront of potential relocation markets" for the NFL.

While the letter also states that no decisions have been made regarding bringing an NFL team to Toronto, it includes a survey to assess how it may provide an "exciting experience for fans and the corporate community alike."

The letter did not specify whose interests were being represented.
I still think it's a long way off. Still need a billionaire to be the single proprietor. Need to come up with a billion dollars to build a state of the art stadium to replace Rogers Centre which is a lousy football venue. Need to come up with a billion dollars to either pay an expansion fee or close to that to buy another team and relocate. Forbes latest list has the Oakland Raiders at 32nd out of 32 with a franchise value of $825 million. The much talked about Buffalo Bills are ranked #30 at $870 million which today is darned close to $1 billion $CAD.
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DanoT
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Hambone wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:TSN report. I hope fans realize and remember what Bobby Ackles predicted if the NFL gets into Toronto - very much doom and gloom for the CFL. You think the CFL would still get the great TSN contract if they had an NFL team in Toronto? I don't think so.

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=442603

NFL FRANCHISE SURVEY SENT TO TORONTO CORPORATE COMMUNITY
It appears that due diligence is being done to bring an NFL franchise to Toronto.

In a letter received by TSN, members of the city's corporate community are being asked for feedback on the potential of an NFL franchise and stadium in the Greater Toronto Area.

The letter, which was sent from CSL International - a sports facility planning and advisory firm based in Texas - states that Toronto is "at the forefront of potential relocation markets" for the NFL.

While the letter also states that no decisions have been made regarding bringing an NFL team to Toronto, it includes a survey to assess how it may provide an "exciting experience for fans and the corporate community alike."

The letter did not specify whose interests were being represented.
I still think it's a long way off. Still need a billionaire to be the single proprietor. Need to come up with a billion dollars to build a state of the art stadium to replace Rogers Centre which is a lousy football venue. Need to come up with a billion dollars to either pay an expansion fee or close to that to buy another team and relocate. Forbes latest list has the Oakland Raiders at 32nd out of 32 with a franchise value of $825 million. The much talked about Buffalo Bills are ranked #30 at $870 million which today is darned close to $1 billion $CAD.
I agree with you Hambone and I am adamant that biggest "market survey" was the Bills in Toronto series and its failure showed quite clearly that NFL fans in TO are not ready to step up in significant numbers and pay big bucks to see the NFL in TO. The Rogers people thought that they would sell out the series and that they could charge what ever they wanted. They were wrong.

This latest survey is grasping a straws. TO is a hockey, baseball and maybe basketball town. It is not a football town. If Toronto was a football town then both the Argos and the Bills in Toronto series would both produce better, money making numbers.
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DanoT wrote:This latest survey is grasping a straws. TO is a hockey, baseball and maybe basketball town. It is not a football town. If Toronto was a football town then both the Argos and the Bills in Toronto series would both produce better, money making numbers.
According to an Angus Reid survey last November, pro football ranked second to the NHL in fan interest in Toronto, followed closely by baseball. The NBA and MLS ranked well behind in popularity. Ontario (especially Toronto) and the Atlantic provinces were the only parts of the country where the NFL was more popular than the CFL, but pro football still was more popular in Toronto than in Canada overall.

The poll also showed strong support in B.C. for the CFL and much less interest than the rest of the country in the NFL, but the NHL was also more popular in B.C. than anywhere else in the country.
Angus Reid poll
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