Top Short-Term BC Lions (~2 seasons) - Dethrone Seniority?

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Should Doug Flutie be inducted into the Wall of Fame and Co-Retiring his #22 on the Ring of Honour?

Yes
5
24%
No
16
76%
 
Total votes: 21
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Robbie
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Over the years, there have been many threads about the best and favourite BC Lions, most recently the thread created by strait8. When creating such lists of top players, the usual names usually pop up and for the most part, there isn’t too much argument. But I will add a twist in composing such lists – let’s discuss only short-term Lions and see if it’s possible for them to be included in such favourite and top Lions. :i:

I stated before that there is always a strong correlation between the players who are on such a list and his seniority with the team, i.e. Lions with many seasons and games are usually selected over those who played fewer seasons despite how well he may have been and that was discussed in this thread I created a few years ago: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10201

The same concept applies to Lions have been honoured in the form of being inducted in the Wall of Fame, Ring of Honour, and/or selected for the 50 Anniversary Dream Team. Obviously there’s always an affinity and bias towards long-term Lions who played for at least 5 seasons, and that’s clearly indicated in the 50 Anniversary Dream Team list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bc_lions

But there are still the odd exceptions that strait8 already listed in the other thread so I want to discuss if it’s possible for a player to be very famous for the Lions but was only a Lion for a short period of time? I will choose the generous and subjective number of no more than 2 seasons as a Lion to define a short-term Lion.

Is it possible to select a short-term Lion with only 2 seasons as a top/best/favourite Lion and dethrone other Lions with much more seniority for that position?

I will list some possible candidates, the first of which is the existing exception.

OFFENCE

Quarterbacks:
Doug Flutie (1990-91) – first and foremost despite the fact that he played only two seasons, and only one season as a starter in 1991 in which he played well and there’s little argument that he’s the best Lions QB and the only short-term Lion on the 50th list. He can easily dethrone other Lion QB’s who had much more seniority like Roy Dewalt, Joe Paopao, Joe Kapp, Dave Dickenson, and certainly the only other Lion QB MOP.

Matt Dunigan (1988-89) – he would be the second-best, albeit a distant second-best short-term Lion QB who was selected as the cfl all-star QB in 1988. He may or may not be more popular than Dewalt even though Dewalt was never selected as a western all-star ,or the injury-prone Dickenson, but I’d say most would say he’s much better and popular than the Lion QB with the second-longest seniority: Damon Allen.

Receivers:
David Williams (1988-89) – by far the least popular of the five Lion CFL MOP’s. :shock: I don’t think anybody would dethrone the first Lion MOP Mervyn Fernandez, even though Williams broke the then-team record with 18 TD’s previously set by Fernandez with 17. And he wasn’t nearly as popular as other receivers like Darren Flutie, Matt Clark, Mike Trevathan, Ray Alexander, John Pankratz, Harry Holt, and Jim Young, even though they never won MOP.

Running Backs:
Tony Cherry (1988-89) and Darrell Wallace (1989-90) :yahoo:
These pair of short, short-term running backs provided a lot of excitement on the field. Cherry was selected as an all-star in 1988, while Wallace was runner-up for rookie of the year in 1989 when he set a new team record of 1225 kickoff return yards and added 780 punt return yards. Perhaps not as popular to dethrone Sean Millington, but I’m sure that there were many cases in which watching Cherry and Wallace run was much more exciting than watching Millington.

Offensive Lineman:
Chris Perez (2000)
Traded for future CFL MOP QB Khari Jones, Chris Perez only played one year before retiring, and provided great protection with his all-star performance in helping DA and company winning the championship. I wouldn’t say he would dethrone the many other long-term lineman, but if I had to choose a top short-term lineman it would be him.


DEFENCE

Defensive Linemen:
Cameron Wake (2007-08) :thup:
First and foremost with the best exception example on defence, winning a pair of most outstanding defensive player along with a outstanding rookie award during his two all-star seasons. Probably not capable of dethroning James “Quick” Parker who also won most outstanding defensive awards in 1984 and 1986 in addition to his 1985 all-star status and GC Defensive Player of the Game. But perhaps capable of dethroning Nick Hebeler, Mike Cacic, and Rick Klassen who were all-stars for only one season and never a finalist for the most outstanding defensive player award.

Linebackers:
Alondra Johnson (1989-90) and Willie Pless (1990) :sigh:
These great pair of linebackers were unfortunately overshadowed by their terrible defensive teams of 1989 and 1990. When it came to worst free agency losses, these two should definitely rank high in the list as they really shined with their new teams in Calgary and Edmonton and their many accolades. These are good examples of “what have beens”, and whether they would have outshined Tom Brown, Ray Nettles, Glen Jackson, and Norm Fieldgate.

Defensive Backs:
Less Browne (1993-94) and Charles Gordon (1994-95)
These pair of defensive backs were instrumental in the 1994 GC season. Ending off his fine career as a Lion in 1994 with the GC and all-star, Browne holds the all-pro record for most interceptions with 87 and most interception return yards with 1508. While Charles Gordon made two very important and memorable interceptions in the GC playoffs. That said, should they dethrone Joe Fourqurean who despite a great play in the 1977 WSDF was overshadowed by the bad teams of the 1970’s, and Andre Francis who was never an all-star as a Lion and who couldn’t adequately cover James Murphy in the 1988 GC?

-----------------------------------

I think in terms of honouring short-term players in the various professional sports leagues, the best example would be when the Colorado Avalanche retired Ray Bourque’s #77 despite the fact that he only played 1.5 seasons with the team. And what I think it’s rather ironic and maybe disgustingly is that the Avalanche chose to unretired the numbers of four long-term Quebec Nordiques as if though they don’t give a damn about their ancestry: J.C. Tremblay #3, Marc Tardiff #8, Michel Goulet #16, Peter Stastny #26. :bawl:

Therefore, do you think it’s time for the Lions break tradition and honour a great but short-term player?

I’ll add a poll with a simple Yes/No selection using Doug Flutie as the best representative of a great short-term player:

Should the BC Lions honour Doug Flutie by inducting him into the BC Lions Wall of Fame and Co-Retiring his #22 on the Ring of Honour?
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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almo89
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Do the Lions have any official retired numbers?
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Robbie
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almo89 wrote:Do the Lions have any official retired numbers?
http://www.bclions.com/uploads/assets/B ... umbers.pdf
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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almo89
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Robbie wrote:
almo89 wrote:Do the Lions have any official retired numbers?
http://www.bclions.com/uploads/assets/B ... umbers.pdf
The PDF shows them as "honored" numbers. The reason I asked is because Joe Kapp's number 22 is on there, but Flutie wore 22 when he was here. The question is are they officially retired or are they just honored?

I mean with the obvious ones like Jim Young and Lui, none of the current Leos would wear their numbers even if they weren't retired, but the Kapp and Flutie situation is sort of confusing.
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West Coast Blue Fan
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Cam Wake would be my only consideration.

Chris Perez was a bust, he was always hurt.
I'd love you to say it to my face because you'd only say it once...if you ever had the courage to say it at all!! Blitz, 05/24/2008
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pennw
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almo89 wrote:
Robbie wrote:
almo89 wrote:Do the Lions have any official retired numbers?
http://www.bclions.com/uploads/assets/B ... umbers.pdf
The PDF shows them as "honored" numbers. The reason I asked is because Joe Kapp's number 22 is on there, but Flutie wore 22 when he was here. The question is are they officially retired or are they just honored?

I mean with the obvious ones like Jim Young and Lui, none of the current Leos would wear their numbers even if they weren't retired, but the Kapp and Flutie situation is sort of confusing.
Joe Kapp was GM at the time of his unretiring of his number . 22 was Flutie's number and when he was brought in , Kapp let him have the number even though it was his own retired number . I think if it hasn't yet been done , Kapps number should be retired again . Flutie was far to temporary .
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KnowItAll
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interesting that as far as I recollect, Flutie never wore 22 again.
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strait8
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Robbie

interesting topic. I agree with the majority no Flutie name on the wall.
Some comments on the players named:

Less Browne and Charles Gordon;

These guys were absolutely great. Browne smooth as silk and the all time interception leader in the CFL. Also a great leader. Charles Gordon was almost always around the ball, not only interceptions but also fumble recoveries that he made were very timely. I think an honorable nmention should be given to a > 2 player in the same backfield, Barry Wilburn. He did what no one else could he shutdown Allan Pitts. Wiburn was a big tough ex-Redskin safety who had played in the Super bowl and was used to covering bigger NFL receivers. One of the reasons BC went to the GC was Wilburn's shutdown coverage in the playoffs.

i think as a unit this was the finest defensive backfield ever put on the field by BC. A tribute to Dave Ritchie on this.

Matt Dunigan

Dunigan, was the consumate poster boy quarterback. You know some guys are born to be qb's and Generals and MD was certainly one of those. he truly was a QB with a gung ho LB mentality. A true leader on the field. I had the occasion to use Dunigan as a spokesman for one of my businesses. He was and is amongst the most charismatic individuals I have ever met. He was great for our business.

I truly believe Dunigan would make a great head coach. he had too much job in Calgary. Given a second the same way Ronnie Lancaster was, i believe he would shine. he has the ability to be a great leader off the field as well as an excellent spokesman for the team and brand

David Williams

You are right about his popularity. I think he suffered from the halo effect of Mervn Fernandez who he reminded everybody of. On top of it all he was not popular in the dressing room and i think Dunigan lobbied to have him moved. but he was a talented receiver. in my mind he was more stiff and less fluid than MF but had very good hands and route running ability
Willie Fleming is the Best Lion ever!!
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Coast Mountain Lion
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KnowItAll wrote:interesting that as far as I recollect, Flutie never wore 22 again.
He wore 20 with Calgary and 2 with Toronto, where he arguably made the most impact in the CFL. He may have been the biggest star ever to hit the CFL, but his impact in BC was negligible, apart from that parade he did up Howe Street in the back of a convertible with Murray Pezim.

My vote: a big fat NO.
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Coast Mountain Lion
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Robbie wrote:
I think in terms of honouring short-term players in the various professional sports leagues, the best example would be when the Colorado Avalanche retired Ray Bourque’s #77 despite the fact that he only played 1.5 seasons with the team. And what I think it’s rather ironic and maybe disgustingly is that the Avalanche chose to unretired the numbers of four long-term Quebec Nordiques as if though they don’t give a damn about their ancestry: J.C. Tremblay #3, Marc Tardiff #8, Michel Goulet #16, Peter Stastny #26. :bawl:
The Avalanche are not the Nordiques and I have no trouble with them reusing numbers that those players never wore in Denver.
In fact, I thought it rather tacky that the Phoenix Coyotes would retire the numbers of players that only played for the Winnipeg Jets.

The dumbest thing was when the NHL retired Wayne Gretzky's number league-wide, for the twenty-six teams he never played for.
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Robbie
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Thinking more about Doug Flutie, a few questions for any Argonaut fans (like Ravi) and Stampeder fans on the board. Try to answer on behalf of the majority of the Toronto or Calgary fans.

--------------
For Argo fans:

Doug Flutie played two seasons for the Argonauts and in his two years he won 2 MOP's and 2 GC MVP's.

1. Do you consider Doug Flutie as the best Argonauts QB ever?
2. How do you think he compares with other Argo QB's with MOP's or GC's like Damon Allen, Matt Dunigan, Joe Barnes, and Condredge Holloway?
3. There are 19 identified as All-Time Argonauts http://www.argonauts.ca/page/all-time-argonauts and only 4 retired numbers http://www.argonauts.ca/retired-numbers with only 1 of them a part-time QB's, Krol. Should Flutie added as the 20th player on the list, and should he also become the 5th player and 2nd QB by retiring his #2?

Image

---------------
LIikewise for Stampeder fans:

Doug Flutie played four seasons for the Stampeders, winning 3 MOP's and likely would have won 4 had he not been injured in his fourth season in Calgary and he also won 1 GC MVP.

1. Do you consider Doug Flutie as the best Stampeders QB ever?
2. How do you think he compares with other Stampeder QB's with MOP's or GC's like Henry Burris, Marcus Crandell, Dave Dickenson, Jeff Garcia, and Jerry Keeling?
3. There are 8 players with retired numbers and none of them are QB's. Should the Stampeders make Flutie the first QB and retire his #20?

Image

---------------

Summarizing, it looks like the CFL certainly honoured Doug Flutie by inducting him into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame. But it looks like his three CFL teams have not honoured him with any inductions or number retirements.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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KnowItAll
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Flutie, best Calgary QB and best Toronto QB.

as for BC, best QB we ever had, but we didnt quite get his best. Pretty damn good though. Still top 3.
Every day that passes is one you can't get back
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Robbie
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West Coast Blue Fan wrote:Cam Wake would be my only consideration.
Hey WCBF and other Bomber fans, since I asked Stamps and Argos fans, I'm going to ask you some similar questions regarding short-term Bombers and see if you can answer on behalf of the majority of BB fans.

1. What are your thoughts on these shorter-term Bomber QB's:
Sean Salisbury (1.5 seasons, 1 GC)
Tom Burgess (2 seasons, 1 GC + MVP)
Matt Dunigan (3 seasons, 2 GC appearances but 0 wins)

2. How do you compare them with longer-term Bomber QB's like :
Tom Clements (5 seasons, 1 MOP, 1 GC)
Dieter Brock (8 seasons, 2 MOP, 0 GC)
Don Jones (3.5 seasons, 1 MOP, 0 GC)
Khari Jones (4.5 seasons, 1 MOP, 0 GC)

3. What short-term Bombers did you like and are there any instances in which you like them more than a longer-term Bomber for that same position?

4. In the Blue Bombers greats page: http://www.bluebombers.com/page/all_time_greats all of them have played at least 5 years. Do you think there are shorter-termed Bombers that should be inducted to that group?
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Robbie
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Robbie wrote:--------------
For Argo fans:

Doug Flutie played two seasons for the Argonauts and in his two years he won 2 MOP's and 2 GC MVP's.

1. Do you consider Doug Flutie as the best Argonauts QB ever?
2. How do you think he compares with other Argo QB's with MOP's or GC's like Damon Allen, Matt Dunigan, Joe Barnes, and Condredge Holloway?
3. There are 19 identified as All-Time Argonauts http://www.argonauts.ca/page/all-time-argonauts and only 4 retired numbers http://www.argonauts.ca/retired-numbers with only 1 of them a part-time QB's, Krol. Should Flutie added as the 20th player on the list, and should he also become the 5th player and 2nd QB by retiring his #2?
Another question for Ravi and other Argo fans regarding short-term players. What are your thoughts on Raghib "Rocket" Ismail? He was signed for four years, but left after a bad second season. With his 1991 GC MVP, do you think he is worthy of having his #25 retired?

Overall, is the Rocket better remembered by his highest moment as an Argo:
[video][/video]

Or his lowest moment as an Argo:
[video][/video]
Last edited by Robbie on Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Not only was Flutie not a BC Lion long enough, he really didn't do much for us while he was a Lion. Yes, he was exciting to watch, but that was all he meant to our franchise. No doubt in my mind he's the best player in CFL history, but like others have said, the BC Lions didn't get the best of Flutie. If anything the Lions need to be honoured for bringing Flutie to the CFL in the first place.

I enjoyed that video of Rocket getting ejected. Great reminder of just how inept Don Whitman was and how poor the CBC was in general when it came to CFL football. "I just had my pants dry cleaned this week" :sigh:
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