The overall problem with the Lions seems to be systemic, what I would call the team culture. In past years, some of us have suggested a culture of entitlement within the team.
The number of players exhibiting a lack of discipline in critical situations suggests, to me, that the operating scheme is not working. Discipline is not being stressed and rewarded, lack of discipline is not being punished.
When the issues have become part of the team identity and culture, I blame the coaches.
Breaking News... Printers cut!
Moderator: Team Captains
I think we've hashed out the Printers release a lot now. By last thoughts on this topic, for the immediate future are:
1. Printers behavior was not acceptable. Nor was Wilson's who also engaged actively in the argument. Printers, as a quarterback has a higher standard to uphold. Both are also friends of each other, which may have made both feel more comfortable arguing but the perception of it was poor, to say the least.
2. What happened in the players dressing room should have stayed there. The only way it could have gotten out of there is if a Leo brought the issue forward in some way that the coaching staff learned about it. That breaks the Code also. There have only been two thoughts expressed publically regarding the dressing room 'incident'. The first was from Angus Reid, who basically believed that was not how a leader should behave and the second by Jarious Jackson, a captain also, who said that what Printers said in the players dressing room needed to be said.
3. There is a definite inconsistency of practice regarding how these types of incident have been dealt with on our Leos. Getting away from on-field lack of discipline and only looking at sideline or off-field incidents, there have been other sideline incidents which have not been dealt with by Wally in the same manner as Printers was..and they include Simon getting in Buck's face in the past, Simon getting in Wally's face in the past, and the dressing room fight between Messam and Jackson, Wally also 'earholes' his assistant coaches on the sidelines, which does not set an example.
Printers is basically gone because he was no longer in our Leos plans for the future (rightly or wrongly) and he was not going to be a happy camper as a backup after being signed as our starter for this year. The so called 'dressing room' incident only provided an opportunity for some old team ;politics' to reemerge with a couple of old vets from Printers first stint here and the situation also provided Wally with an opportunity to send a message. I reallly don't believe the Winnipeg incident is the key issue..the key issue was whether Printers should have been our starting quarterback for the future or not. However Printers did not fit Chap's offensive scheme and Chap now has the quarterback he wants. Travis Lulay has handled the whole thing with class. Its not really about Lulay.
However, my major concern with our Leos for a long time has been our Chap led offence, the injuries and punishment our quarterbacks have taken trying to execute this offence. the declining personal performance of quarterbacks in this offence the longer they play for Chap, and the problems inheritant in our offensive scheme and play calling.
While I have always hoped for a new offensive coordintor who could bring fresh eyes to a stale, tired scheme, I have finally reached the stage where I believe it would be best for Wally to resign as HC at the conclusion of this season. I have never thought that way before today. While he was not an x and o's knowledgeable coach nor a good game day coach, Wally had his winning record and stature which I believed was a huge plus for our Leos. However, I just see a HC who has not surrounded himself as he did in the past with top drawer assistant coaches, with the exception of hiring Stubler this past year. I don't see a Ritchie or a Hufnagel or a Cortez on our coaching staff at present, although I believe Barrin Miles could become an exceptional defensive coordinator in time.
I really would love to see Dave Ritchie come back here as Head Coach. He has stature. He wants to be a Head Coach again. He's had his time with his grandchildren and is chomping at the bit. I doubt Wally would hire him and would insert a Benevedes or who knows, even a Chapdelaine as Head Coach. However, I really believe we need someone at this juncture with Head Coaching experience. Wally is likely tired. Who knows> However I see a Head Coach who is only using negative strategies from constantly changing quarterbacks, blaming quarterbacks and other players for lack of execution, cutting any player who looks like he might have a mind of his own, cutting players to send messages, and just making too many mistakes regarding player evalutaion.
I also see a team lacking discipline, both on the field and off, and the penalties are just another indication of a team that is not tuning in its Head Coach. While i appaud the introduction of young coaches to the game, Wally doesn't appear to be comfortable enough adding coaches from outside the organization and Wally is not able to 'coach up' his assistant coaches. The Chap thing on offence has gone on way too long. Right now, he gives me a feeling of Nixon in the White House, in the later part of his career.
I doubt Wally would leave at the end of this season, going out on a low note. However, if he doesn't, he really needs to look at himself and his coaching staff. Very Serious changes are needed, either in personell at the coaching level or signifcant changes in approach. The same old, same old, with just some different players or a different quarterback just isn't going to get this ship turned around.
1. Printers behavior was not acceptable. Nor was Wilson's who also engaged actively in the argument. Printers, as a quarterback has a higher standard to uphold. Both are also friends of each other, which may have made both feel more comfortable arguing but the perception of it was poor, to say the least.
2. What happened in the players dressing room should have stayed there. The only way it could have gotten out of there is if a Leo brought the issue forward in some way that the coaching staff learned about it. That breaks the Code also. There have only been two thoughts expressed publically regarding the dressing room 'incident'. The first was from Angus Reid, who basically believed that was not how a leader should behave and the second by Jarious Jackson, a captain also, who said that what Printers said in the players dressing room needed to be said.
3. There is a definite inconsistency of practice regarding how these types of incident have been dealt with on our Leos. Getting away from on-field lack of discipline and only looking at sideline or off-field incidents, there have been other sideline incidents which have not been dealt with by Wally in the same manner as Printers was..and they include Simon getting in Buck's face in the past, Simon getting in Wally's face in the past, and the dressing room fight between Messam and Jackson, Wally also 'earholes' his assistant coaches on the sidelines, which does not set an example.
Printers is basically gone because he was no longer in our Leos plans for the future (rightly or wrongly) and he was not going to be a happy camper as a backup after being signed as our starter for this year. The so called 'dressing room' incident only provided an opportunity for some old team ;politics' to reemerge with a couple of old vets from Printers first stint here and the situation also provided Wally with an opportunity to send a message. I reallly don't believe the Winnipeg incident is the key issue..the key issue was whether Printers should have been our starting quarterback for the future or not. However Printers did not fit Chap's offensive scheme and Chap now has the quarterback he wants. Travis Lulay has handled the whole thing with class. Its not really about Lulay.
However, my major concern with our Leos for a long time has been our Chap led offence, the injuries and punishment our quarterbacks have taken trying to execute this offence. the declining personal performance of quarterbacks in this offence the longer they play for Chap, and the problems inheritant in our offensive scheme and play calling.
While I have always hoped for a new offensive coordintor who could bring fresh eyes to a stale, tired scheme, I have finally reached the stage where I believe it would be best for Wally to resign as HC at the conclusion of this season. I have never thought that way before today. While he was not an x and o's knowledgeable coach nor a good game day coach, Wally had his winning record and stature which I believed was a huge plus for our Leos. However, I just see a HC who has not surrounded himself as he did in the past with top drawer assistant coaches, with the exception of hiring Stubler this past year. I don't see a Ritchie or a Hufnagel or a Cortez on our coaching staff at present, although I believe Barrin Miles could become an exceptional defensive coordinator in time.
I really would love to see Dave Ritchie come back here as Head Coach. He has stature. He wants to be a Head Coach again. He's had his time with his grandchildren and is chomping at the bit. I doubt Wally would hire him and would insert a Benevedes or who knows, even a Chapdelaine as Head Coach. However, I really believe we need someone at this juncture with Head Coaching experience. Wally is likely tired. Who knows> However I see a Head Coach who is only using negative strategies from constantly changing quarterbacks, blaming quarterbacks and other players for lack of execution, cutting any player who looks like he might have a mind of his own, cutting players to send messages, and just making too many mistakes regarding player evalutaion.
I also see a team lacking discipline, both on the field and off, and the penalties are just another indication of a team that is not tuning in its Head Coach. While i appaud the introduction of young coaches to the game, Wally doesn't appear to be comfortable enough adding coaches from outside the organization and Wally is not able to 'coach up' his assistant coaches. The Chap thing on offence has gone on way too long. Right now, he gives me a feeling of Nixon in the White House, in the later part of his career.
I doubt Wally would leave at the end of this season, going out on a low note. However, if he doesn't, he really needs to look at himself and his coaching staff. Very Serious changes are needed, either in personell at the coaching level or signifcant changes in approach. The same old, same old, with just some different players or a different quarterback just isn't going to get this ship turned around.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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PigSkin_53
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Excellent take Blitz...
As always you provide us with the facts as well as the solutions to the conundrum.
We both know that any meaningfull change to this team will have to happen at the ownership level, yeah?
As always you provide us with the facts as well as the solutions to the conundrum.
We both know that any meaningfull change to this team will have to happen at the ownership level, yeah?
"Just Win Baby" ~ Al Davis
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TheLionKing
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- Location: Vancouver
I agree with what Blitz said. If then present coaching staff return next year it will be the same old, same old. Fans are already tuning out the Lions as evidenced how many showed up yesterday on a purrfect night for football.
I am a boss, and it's a little bit different than a pro athlete. First of all, I can fire them AND not have to worry that they might go to the competitor and screw me over. Secondly, I DO listen if one of my guys has an idea, even if it's different from what I think, and I will explain WHY I think their idea isn't any good, or conversely, I will take their idea if it has merit (something that Buono has NOT done). Have YOU ever thought that maybe, just maybe, listening to someone can make a huge difference in their attitude to you, and to their work and work ethic. People like to work for people when they feel they are listened to, and that their opinions are important. From the comments of players who have left the team, it is quite clear that Buono does NOT listen to anyone else's ideas, and makes them feel like their idiots for even suggesting it.ziggy wrote:Before I finally throw in the towel on this waste of bandwidth.I ask you again, what would you do if you were the coach, or a boss of a person who lacks self control and won't listen? If he is screwing up the team or worksite, what would you do as his boss? You vaguely suggest you have a method for dealing with your teenage children but as per normal don't elaborate. What is your secret that the professional coaches could use to deal with professional athletes that you employ with your teenage children? Oh and I think its insulting to suggest pro athletes have no self control, ot their parents lacked your knowledge and never instilled it in them.hwgill wrote: So what if you do, how many are professional athletes?
If I were a coach, I could tell you exactly what Buono need to do, as a parent, I know what I do with my teenage and older kids now to teach them self-control.
Making excuses for the coaching of this team...whatever, I find that I really don't give a rats a$$ any more. Not about Buono, Chap, or their apologists. Just keep making everything CP's fault (or whichever player people don't like at the time. Hell, I can't stand Sanchez and am quite happy he's out, though I wish it weren't through injury. Hated him when he played for the Als, and my opinion of him hasn't changed). It's an easy out, but it will only last for so long.
The coaching staff needs to change before the team's fortunes change.
Has nothing to do with how they were raised, hell, when you hear some of the stories of what some of these guys went through to get where they are, you can be nothing but impressed. However, pro athletes do tend to have higher aggression levels (football players especially), they need this high aggression in order to make it to the pros. When you combine high aggression with high levels of adrenaline you get guys who do lose control of their emotions. The coaches job is to channel that aggression, and teach THEM how to channel it.
It's really not that hard to figure out.
" ... a team not being prepared to play is the head coach’s responsibility.” - Jim Barker
Yes and no. Fewer fans are turning out to games, but far more are tuning in on TV. And despite the fact the club has a horrible 2-6 home record, Empire has been at 87% capacity this year.TheLionKing wrote:I agree with what Blitz said. If then present coaching staff return next year it will be the same old, same old. Fans are already tuning out the Lions as evidenced how many showed up yesterday on a purrfect night for football.
DH
Roar, You Lions, Roar
Setting a goal is not the main thing. It is deciding how you will go about achieving it and staying with that plan. The key is discipline. Without it, there is no morale. - Tom Landry
Without self-discipline, success is impossible, period. - Lou Holtz
Without self-discipline, success is impossible, period. - Lou Holtz
A lot of the ST were sold based on last seasons results and the return of Casey coming in, plus the nostalgia of Empire and the outdoor stadium. Given that, the Lions 2010 season reflection will be seen in the ST base for BC Place, which has an advantage of hosting the Grey Cup, so the ST will be bumped up a little.David wrote:Yes and no. Fewer fans are turning out to games, but far more are tuning in on TV. And despite the fact the club has a horrible 2-6 home record, Empire has been at 87% capacity this year.TheLionKing wrote:I agree with what Blitz said. If then present coaching staff return next year it will be the same old, same old. Fans are already tuning out the Lions as evidenced how many showed up yesterday on a purrfect night for football.
DH
Entertainment value = an all time low
Agreed. I'll try to make this my last comment.Blitz wrote:I think we've hashed out the Printers release a lot now.
The coashes were there and witnessed it. Wally was the one who first mentioned it and called it "garbage" when asked about the sideline incident, which he says he didn't see. He says he knew then that he had to take action, and releasing Pinters was the only feasible option.Blitz wrote:What happened in the players dressing room should have stayed there. The only way it could have gotten out of there is if a Leo brought the issue forward in some way that the coaching staff learned about it.
Wally has also said he dealt in other ways with players who took selfish penalties in the Winnipeg game. He can't cut everybody but he indicated they all got a stern warning or discipline of some sort.
The relevant articles have been cited before in this thread, but for reference here is one from Lowell Ullrich:
LinkThere was nothing Buono or his coaches could do but watch them implode on the field and in the locker-room afterwards. A day later, he only could state the obvious.
"The whole thing is sad," he began. "If there's anger, then show me when it really counts. Don't show it to me in the locker-room when it's over. Who cares? Does losing hurt you more than the rest of us? If you care more, then you should do more. Throwing your helmet in the locker-room is garbage."
Here is one from Cam Cole:
LinkPrinters tossed the game-losing interception in overtime Monday, then threw his helmet angrily on the ground and – most grievously – proceeded to chew out receiver O'Neill Wilson in front of TSN's cameras, a breach of leadership so flagrant, Buono says he had no choice but to cut the quarterback.
“There's two different issues I had to deal with. One was the disrespect and the ignorance that was shown by certain players,” Buono said, meaning cornerback Davis Sanchez and returner Yonus Davis and defensive lineman Khalif Mitchell, “and then this incident, that's totally different.
“You've got to try to separate the two, but you have to deal with both of them.
"What happened in the fourth quarter was an embarrassment to all of us. The B.C. Lions as an organization don't condone that type of behaviour. We've worked hard for many, many years to build the reputation of an organization that has dignity and has class and has discipline, and in the fourth quarter there was none of that."
Printers, however, evidently crossed a line that may be visible only to football players and coaches.
So the other major contributors to the Monday meltdown just got a talking-to, maybe a small fine. Boys will be boys, and all that.
The quarterback got the guillotine.
You and I may have difficulty seeing how the punishment fits the crime, but evidently it goes with the territory – and the salary.
"There's a code that you have to respect. The locker room is a very volatile place. As soon as it occurred, when I walked out of that locker room, I knew that I was in a no-win situation,” Buono said. “There were only two alternatives, and one wasn't do-able.
“This was an incident that, in my mind, put the whole team in a very tough situation and had to be addressed. When you are a leader, you have to really respect the position that you have, and unfortunately that wasn't the case.”
Wow. I can understand fans giving up hope for this year (I haven't) but next year too? A lot can change from week to week, let alone year to year. This is a young team that has been thoroughly rebuilt. Inexperience and fragile confidence have cost the team games but, as we've seen, the Lions are capable of beating anyone in the league this year.Lionheart wrote:It's going to be a real shame to have the GC here in our wonderful new dome and not even be close to being in it.
As for our wonderful new dome, I'll sure be happy to see the last of Empire. That site must be haunted by the ghosts of past teams. Empire wasn't good to the Lions for most of their first 29 years, and it hasn't been good to them this year. Wearing '70s retro uniforms for the first several home games added to the losing atmosphere for those of us who sat through that decade. I can't wait for home sweet dome next year to erase the memories of Empire.
Keep the faith Robert! A lot can happen in a year. Look at the infusion of talented first year players here in BC: Sol Elimimian, Yonus Davis, Anthony Reddick, David Hyland, Jovan Olafioye, Stanley Franks, Jerome Messam, Steven Black, Joe Henderson, Shawn Gore, Adam Leonard....and our quarterback is only going to get better with more reps!Lionheart wrote:It's going to be a real shame to have the GC here in our wonderful new dome and not even be close to being in it.
DH
Roar, You Lions, Roar
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TheLionKing
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Yes and no. Fewer fans are turning out to games, but far more are tuning in on TV. /quote]David wrote:TheLionKing wrote:I agree with what Blitz said. If then present coaching staff return next year it will be the same old, same old. Fans are already tuning out the Lions as evidenced how many showed up yesterday on a purrfect night for football.
Unfortunately that doesn't translate into gate revenue.
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Lionheart
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David, BC Fan I'm too old to rely on faith. Experience has taught me well. I do see the new players David and yes I have no worries there. However in the important positions, at QB and offensive line we are seriously laking in experience. I take a look at the teams with a legitimate shot and see how many years it took for the QB to get to that level, and how long it took to build up a line that could work at that level. We may be there with this unit, but not next year.
The QB issue looks to be a couple of years away from primetime, but just watching Burris yesterday being able to fire the ball into the receivers on the sidelines or downfield under tight coverage, and I have to say the Lions don't have that option with Lulay. It allows the receiver to gain those much needed YAC, especially since 90% of the throws are 5 yards downfield.Lionheart wrote:David, BC Fan I'm too old to rely on faith. Experience has taught me well. I do see the new players David and yes I have no worries there. However in the important positions, at QB and offensive line we are seriously laking in experience. I take a look at the teams with a legitimate shot and see how many years it took for the QB to get to that level, and how long it took to build up a line that could work at that level. We may be there with this unit, but not next year.
Entertainment value = an all time low