2015 All Things Lions Marketing & Promotions

[sj-roc]

If anybody has not heard 1040 this morning with angus reed about how the lions are not getting people in the seats go to audio on 1040 and listen to this mornings show Angus is right on the money. it is the reason I do not go , I do not get $50.00 worth of entertainment . have not for a long time.

If you're not too busy putting together your Seahawk travel plans for this year, perhaps you could at least tell us approximately what time this morning you heard this. As opposed to, you know, expecting us to sift through four hours of audio for what probably amounts to, for all we know, a 10 second sound bite from Mr. Reid (note spelling) that isn't something we haven't all already heard dozens of times.

[Hambone]

If anybody has not heard 1040 this morning with angus reed about how the lions are not getting people in the seats go to audio on 1040 and listen to this mornings show Angus is right on the money. it is the reason I do not go , I do not get $50.00 worth of entertainment . have not for a long time.

If you're not too busy putting together your Seahawk travel plans for this year, perhaps you could at least tell us approximately what time this morning you heard this. As opposed to, you know, expecting us to sift through four hours of audio for what probably amounts to, for all we know, a 10 second sound bite from Mr. Reid (note spelling) that isn't something we haven't all already heard dozens of times.

Angus was on around 9:30. I didn't link in until around 9:00 and wasn't paying enough attention to notice if he had been there all along filling in for Bro Jake or just was there for a regular segment.

Suitor was on later in the morning with Sekeres. He got into it a bit with Sekeres and Price. His beef was that in general the media in the bigger markets seem to want to hash and rehash attendances, marketing and comparing CFL to NFL while when he's on with the smaller markets the media wants to talk about the CFL, its players and the games. He said he'd just been on for a 30 minute segment in Edmonton where attendance is also down (62235 first 2 games in 2014 down to 57809 after first 2 games in 2015). He said the talk was all about football with the only question about attendance being about BC and it was the final question in the 30 minute segment. Then he goes over to TSN1040 and the first 5 or 10 minutes are spent talking about attendance and marketing and not a peep about Friday night's game itself or the upcoming.

[dupsdell1]

If anybody has not heard 1040 this morning with angus reed about how the lions are not getting people in the seats go to audio on 1040 and listen to this mornings show Angus is right on the money. it is the reason I do not go , I do not get $50.00 worth of entertainment . have not for a long time.

If you're not too busy putting together your Seahawk travel plans for this year, perhaps you could at least tell us approximately what time this morning you heard this. As opposed to, you know, expecting us to sift through four hours of audio for what probably amounts to, for all we know, a 10 second sound bite from Mr. Reid (note spelling) that isn't something we haven't all already heard dozens of times.

at least with the Seahawks whitecaps and Vancouver Canadians I am entertained , the lions are not facing realty you heard Wally on 1040 yesterday saying how tv is destroying attendance what planet does he live on.

[Toppy Vann]

If anybody has not heard 1040 this morning with angus reed about how the lions are not getting people in the seats go to audio on 1040 and listen to this mornings show Angus is right on the money. it is the reason I do not go , I do not get $50.00 worth of entertainment . have not for a long time.

If you're not too busy putting together your Seahawk travel plans for this year, perhaps you could at least tell us approximately what time this morning you heard this. As opposed to, you know, expecting us to sift through four hours of audio for what probably amounts to, for all we know, a 10 second sound bite from Mr. Reid (note spelling) that isn't something we haven't all already heard dozens of times.

at least with the Seahawks whitecaps and Vancouver Canadians I am entertained , the lions are not facing realty you heard Wally on 1040 yesterday saying how tv is destroying attendance what planet does he live on.

Ackles used to say that the lifting of local blackouts affected the crowd size from 2500 to 3000 and he'd say that came from the marketing staff.

I heard Wally and quite frankly he can speak to these issues better than Skulsky who just can't get the the narrative right.

Angus Reid by the way, not Reed suggests fans are not getting $50 worth of entertainment is not what fans are saying. I thought he got it right post game - TSN coverages, HD, a lot cheaper, no parking , no traffic and your eats, drinks, and buddies - all at home. Basically that says that with so many games to see and the price a bit high for the average person over what they think the price should be - they stay home. Get two games and no outlay of $$$$

[DanoT]

I wonder what game attendance will be like when 3D TV or holographic TV takes hold?

[Ravi]

Are the Whitecaps being affected by HDTV in the same way that the Lions are (at least according to them)? If so, what is their solution?

[sj-roc]

Are the Whitecaps being affected by HDTV in the same way that the Lions are (at least according to them)? If so, what is their solution?

Fairly sure I've channel-surfed past them a time or two, NOT blacked out on standard def, let alone hi def. But their capacity is only 21k — not only is the upper bowl closed, but they also tarp off the back several rows of many (most?) sections in the lower bowl. While they do add a few extra rows in the end zones, in front of what the Lions use (the soccer field is a fair bit shorter than the 150yd CFL gridiron and can accommodate them), it doesn't come close to offsetting those closed off back rows. They often "sell out" or come close to it with this reduced configuration — seven home games out of ten so far this year have reached 21k while only one game has failed to surpass 20k, as I posted in this thread yesterday.

So the Caps have little reason not to lift any blackouts, even on standard def for which they can at least in principle control it. Their avg 2015 att so far is 20,706, and one game even had a listed attendance of 22,500, which I still don't understand given how much they've insisted on committing to a single capacity for a full season at a time (AFAIK it's been 21k since they arrived @BCP in 2011) until demand dictates that they can't pass up the extra ticket revenue an expansion would offer. They were actually criticised by many observers 2-3yrs ago for not opening extra seats to accommodate the added demand when David Beckham's team played here.

Also Ravi, what's your read on the mood in the Toronto area about the Argos moving to BMO for 2016? I'm aware that some TFC fans don't like it because of field condition concerns, but do you get a sense that those who at least like the Argos, if not all the negatives of Skydome, are looking forward and ready to start attending games with the move?

Kind of ironic (and don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be snarky about this) that the Argos left the occasionally terrible weather conditions of the CNE grounds for the climate-friendly confines of a retractible roof just over 25 years ago, and now they can't get back there fast enough. To the extent that the Argos will enjoy an attendance honeymoon when they go back, how long before the weather reminds fans of how much more comfortable Skydome was (putting aside the lack of control over their schedule it gave them, and the fact that Rogers were evicting them anyway so the Jays could play on natural grass)?

[sj-roc]

If anybody has not heard 1040 this morning with angus reed about how the lions are not getting people in the seats go to audio on 1040 and listen to this mornings show Angus is right on the money. it is the reason I do not go , I do not get $50.00 worth of entertainment . have not for a long time.

If you're not too busy putting together your Seahawk travel plans for this year, perhaps you could at least tell us approximately what time this morning you heard this. As opposed to, you know, expecting us to sift through four hours of audio for what probably amounts to, for all we know, a 10 second sound bite from Mr. Reid (note spelling) that isn't something we haven't all already heard dozens of times.

at least with the Seahawks whitecaps and Vancouver Canadians I am entertained , the lions are not facing realty you heard Wally on 1040 yesterday saying how tv is destroying attendance what planet does he live on.

Well, you didn't go with my suggestion but thanks for the reply anyway. I don't know to what extent it's affecting other leagues but I think WB was right that non-blackouts are impacting negatively to some extent on CFL attendance. It may or may not be the dominant factor but it is one of them. Of course the radio guys are going to attack that because they're under that same media umbrella and TSN signs their paycheques. I will concede the point that blackouts in this hi-def era have largely become a thing of the past; non-blackouts are here to stay, so teams will have to work harder to get fans to buy tickets. WB wasn't wrong to identify it as a factor and he didn't say it was "destroying" attendance; he has more decorum than to go off half-cocked like that, especially directly to the league's top media partner.

Since you bring up those other teams, none of which I've ever watched play in person, perhaps you could let us know what they are doing, over and above the experience of watching them on TV (at least for the Hawks and Caps; I'm not aware of any television for the Cdns), that the Lions could also be doing to improve the gameday experience. Let's discuss this constructively instead of just constant negativity and criticism. What are these other teams doing that makes the game day experience so compelling for you, that the Lions could also be doing? Someone posted an article here about a month ago, possibly in a different thread about the Vancouver Canadians and their marketing efforts. One of their team officials claimed that their fan surveys indicated that over half of those in attendance go home without even knowing, let alone caring, whether the Cdns won or lost! I doubt you could say that about the people buying Lions tickets.

The team is still in a hangover from the sub-par on-field product they offered last year. It will probably take some time to undo that damage even if the product is improved this year (which it has so far IMHO, although there's still some work to do with that).

[Hambone]

Don Taylor says it like it is... that Dennis Skulsky said he wasn't alarmed by the crowd on Friday night is alarming on its own.

I took that to mean that he was aware for some time in advance that the crowd would be what it ultimately proved to be, as opposed to (perhaps like some outside observers) expecting a much larger crowd right up until kickoff and only then realising it was only 20k. He mentioned in the course of that answer that they track the sales closely, which of course they do because that's where the att figure comes from in the first place. There's a reason why they were holding these "town hall"-type events in the off-season for 2014 STHs who hadn't yet renewed (and mostly never did). Besides I'm not sure what good it does the team if he's openly panicking that the ship is sinking. He said "we've got work to do" as I mentioned in an earlier post so I think that suffices as far as expressing alarm goes.

When Skusky said they weren't alarmed it was in the context that with the systems they have in place they know where exactly they sit at a given moment in terms of tickets sold and can fairly accurately predict what attendance to expect a few days in advance. That's the beauty, unfortunately, of computer systems. They can put together a simple model, plug in the number of STs sold, past sales history trends leading up to games, then factor in some variables such as opponent, time of season, day of game and kickoff time etc. Starting say 2 weeks prior to the game plug in the number of tickets sold and update it daily. By 72 hours prior to the game they can likely predict the turnstile count within a couple hundred tickets.

One comment I found interesting that I hadn't considered, but makes total sense, is that the concept of day of game walk-up sales is a thing of the past. I remember when the Lions used to count on selling a couple thousand tickets to walkups. Of course that goes back to the days when if you didn't have season tickets you had to buy through the Lions office or at a Ticketmaster outlet if you were lucky enough to live near one or buy at the gate. I think the first few times I went to games in the 70s I'd phone the Lions ticket office, reserve some seats then mail a cheque to them and wait for the tickets to arrive in the mail. Skulsky says with so many easy ways to buy tickets in this era, people buy their tickets in advance. Now that I think about it last year I had a pair I was trying to sell for a buddy. I went down to the stadium an hour before the gates would open and figured I'd just hang out near the ticket windows and try to catch somebody before they hit the ticket wicket by Terry Fox Plaza. Over the 30 minutes or so I tried that strategy I don't think more than a dozen people went up to the ticket windows. Some just checked to see what sort of seats were available and said they might come back later.

[Hambone]

at least with the Seahawks whitecaps and Vancouver Canadians I am entertained , the lions are not facing realty you heard Wally on 1040 yesterday saying how tv is destroying attendance what planet does he live on.

So you get $300 worth of entertainment from the Seahawks, $40 from the Whitecaps and $15 from the Canadians, but not $44 from the Lions?

[TheLionKing]

Problem with buying tickets from Ticketmaster is the damn fees.

[Ravi]

Also Ravi, what's your read on the mood in the Toronto area about the Argos moving to BMO for 2016? I'm aware that some TFC fans don't like it because of field condition concerns, but do you get a sense that those who at least like the Argos, if not all the negatives of Skydome, are looking forward and ready to start attending games with the move?

Kind of ironic (and don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be snarky about this) that the Argos left the occasionally terrible weather conditions of the CNE grounds for the climate-friendly confines of a retractible roof just over 25 years ago, and now they can't get back there fast enough. To the extent that the Argos will enjoy an attendance honeymoon when they go back, how long before the weather reminds fans of how much more comfortable Skydome was (putting aside the lack of control over their schedule it gave them, and the fact that Rogers were evicting them anyway so the Jays could play on natural grass)?

I am in the Niagara Region (unfortunately too much Bills talk here) so what I am going to tell you is really what fans on argofans.com are saying and my take of things from reading and listening to the Toronto media. There is a lot of excitement about the move to BMO and the new ownership group which includes Bell. There is a sense that the new ownership - which doesn't fully take over the team until the end of this year - is invested in the Argos in a way that hasn't been seen since 2010.

As for BMO Field itself, you will get a few fans who think that it is too cheap a facility - although the ongoing renovations should quell those concerns - and that it might not be the greatest place come October/November but, generally, there is considerable excitement about moving there and away from SkyDome which has never really felt like a home to the team since 1989 (i.e., they have been treated as second-class citizens from the outset). On a scheduling basis alone, moving from SkyDome will be an enormous breath of fresh air. This year's Argos schedule is, arguably, the worst in CFL history and the second and third worst have probably happend over the last three years as well. The Argos are playing one less home game than everyone else in the league this year and have been at a competitive disadvantage for the last three years at least because of the crappy treatment that Rogers gives them.

There is no doubt in my mind that the move to BMO will be incredibly successful for the Argos and I don't think that it will only be successful in the short-term either.

[DanoT]

Ravi, now that the Argos have much greater input into scheduling, what do you consider the best days of the week and starting times for home games?

IMO the answer to the above question should be of interest to the Lions and their fans because in many respects the markets are similar. Both are large cities with the CFL not being the number 1 sports team, lots of free or cheap entertainment and festivals and markets and other events especially in summer. Also in Vancouver and I suspect in the GTA, it has to be an "Event" for people to come out in big numbers.

[dupsdell1]

at least with the Seahawks whitecaps and Vancouver Canadians I am entertained , the lions are not facing realty you heard Wally on 1040 yesterday saying how tv is destroying attendance what planet does he live on.

So you get $300 worth of entertainment from the Seahawks, $40 from the Whitecaps and $15 from the Canadians, but not $44 from the Lions?

Yes and I only pay $80.00 for Seahawks as I am a season ticket holder / the bc lions experience is not entertaining sorry not worth the money.

[dupsdell1]

Also Ravi, what's your read on the mood in the Toronto area about the Argos moving to BMO for 2016? I'm aware that some TFC fans don't like it because of field condition concerns, but do you get a sense that those who at least like the Argos, if not all the negatives of Skydome, are looking forward and ready to start attending games with the move?

Kind of ironic (and don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be snarky about this) that the Argos left the occasionally terrible weather conditions of the CNE grounds for the climate-friendly confines of a retractible roof just over 25 years ago, and now they can't get back there fast enough. To the extent that the Argos will enjoy an attendance honeymoon when they go back, how long before the weather reminds fans of how much more comfortable Skydome was (putting aside the lack of control over their schedule it gave them, and the fact that Rogers were evicting them anyway so the Jays could play on natural grass)?

I am in the Niagara Region (unfortunately too much Bills talk here) so what I am going to tell you is really what fans on argofans.com are saying and my take of things from reading and listening to the Toronto media. There is a lot of excitement about the move to BMO and the new ownership group which includes Bell. There is a sense that the new ownership - which doesn't fully take over the team until the end of this year - is invested in the Argos in a way that hasn't been seen since 2010.

As for BMO Field itself, you will get a few fans who think that it is too cheap a facility - although the ongoing renovations should quell those concerns - and that it might not be the greatest place come October/November but, generally, there is considerable excitement about moving there and away from SkyDome which has never really felt like a home to the team since 1989 (i.e., they have been treated as second-class citizens from the outset). On a scheduling basis alone, moving from SkyDome will be an enormous breath of fresh air. This year's Argos schedule is, arguably, the worst in CFL history and the second and third worst have probably happend over the last three years as well. The Argos are playing one less home game than everyone else in the league this year and have been at a competitive disadvantage for the last three years at least because of the crappy treatment that Rogers gives them.

There is no doubt in my mind that the move to BMO will be incredibly successful for the Argos and I don't think that it will only be successful in the short-term either.

There would be excitement here also if the Lions would get a owner like the Argos. Braily has done his time here. we need a shake up of new ownership and a new president in the worst way.