Bombers 23 - Lions 6 Post Game Stats and Comments

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WestCoastJoe
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sj-roc wrote:
Rammer wrote:Thankfully the Bombers were missing two starting defensive stars, because I can't imagine this O looking much worse than they were last night.
Our worst offensive outing at home, points-wise at least, since a 34-6 loss to Cgy in 1987. That was the last one before they fired Matthews.
At this time, it seems to me the only way Wally changes his HC, is after about two or even three non playoff years. And even then, the OL coach and the ST coach might get foisted on to the new Head Coach.

Some of the Lions' coaches must be thinking: "Hey, where is Jacques to take all the heat?" LOL
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The_Pauser
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Just want to throw this out there, but the way to the Grey Cup could be via cross-over in the East. Let's face it, barring the unthinkable I don't see 1st place as a possibility for the Lions in the West. Too many good teams out West, and those teams are already starting to pull ahead. While it may be possible to catch one, or two, I don't see us passing all three.

Now, would you rather have to go through Edmonton and Calgary to get to the Grey Cup? Or perhaps Winnipeg and Edmonton (with how good they've looked this year)? Or would you rather crossover and go through two of Hamilton, Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? Give me the crossover and the East.
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DanoT
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The_Pauser wrote:Just want to throw this out there, but the way to the Grey Cup could be via cross-over in the East. Let's face it, barring the unthinkable I don't see 1st place as a possibility for the Lions in the West. Too many good teams out West, and those teams are already starting to pull ahead. While it may be possible to catch one, or two, I don't see us passing all three.

Now, would you rather have to go through Edmonton and Calgary to get to the Grey Cup? Or perhaps Winnipeg and Edmonton (with how good they've looked this year)? Or would you rather crossover and go through two of Hamilton, Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? Give me the crossover and the East.
Finishing ahead of the two worst teams in the east may not be too difficult, but to make the crossover the Lions would need to finish in 4th in the West, ahead of one other western team and I am not sure who that team is going to be.
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MexicoLionFan
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Swerv, I love your posts and I agree with everything you said...I was just making generalities about "the players being the problem"...you are exactly right about Norman...and as I have said time and again, I LOVE OUR OLINE TALENT...we have the makings of the best OLine in Lion's history (down the road) and that's saying a lot. But they are not getting proper coaching...people talk all the time about DLine "stunts"...there really isn't a lot of magic that a DLineman can do...the inside tackles loop outside or the ends loop inside...you can have the 2 tackles slant one way and have the end loop around them...but if your OLine plays a traditional mano e mano set, they shouldn't have a problem picking these stunts up...its when lineman are taught this stupid zone blocking system, and first reads and responsibilities, that they lose their common sense and fail to see things that are right in front of them...it also leads to passive play...and if you want to run ball effectively, you need OLinemen to blast off the ball, not hesitate to make reads...IT DOESN'T WORK!

Blitz, unbelievable post...I want that message to be sent, hand delivered, to Wally Buono today...and if I was in Vancouver, I would do it...Joe great comments...Rammer, you are bang on...Sammy, bang on...

The coaching problems are all over the place and they include Mark Washington...just look at Adam Bighill last night...he had 4 tackles and a knock down...that's a waste of his talent IMO...Bighill is most versatile, ferocious LB in the league...we should be creating specific sets JUST FOR HIM to unleash his unique brand of hell on the opposition...and this just isn't happening. I watch almost ANY OTHER DEFENCE in the league and I shudder to think what Bighill and Elimimian would do in those systems. Sol had 12 tackles last night, and benefited a lot from another great interior performance by Westerman (and Taylor), but too many times Sol is in a chase position and not an attack position...and how is that we cannot figure out a way to get Sol free on a blitz? As Blitz pointed out, almost EVERY SINGLE blitz that Washington called last night FAILED. Almost every single blitz that O'Shea ran last night WORKED. Ask yourselves, in a professional league, how is this even remotely possible...I took statistics in University, and even from a statistical basis, the % of numbers, we should have more success with our blitzes than we are having.

Here's another question to ask yourselves...in a league where the field is 55 yards wide, with motion permissible before the snap, HOW CAN ALL OF OUR RECEIVERS BE COVERED? Based on mathematics alone, it simply CAN'T happen, and yet at times, it did. Why? Because we don't throw the ball to the wide side, and when we do, it is always off target...so teams CHEAT against us...Offences cheat against us as well because they know they don't have to account for our safety...think about it...how much pressure/sacks on the QB does LaRose provide...how much help over the top does he give...how effectively does he cover receivers man on man when we blitz...how much run support does he provide??? If you can plan against 11 instead of 12, it gives you a lot more options as an OC.

Last night we ran the ball 18 times...Harris had a 5 yard average...Logan a 4 yard average and Arceneaux a 7 yard average. So why didn't we kill them with the run? Beats me...but Khari Jones decided to run empty backfields instead of having Logan and Harris in at the same time...that would have given WPGs D fits...but how many times did Jones run this scheme? Once, twice, None???

The bottom line ever since the 2nd half of the 2012 season has been this...we cannot get concerted pressure on opposing QBs and we can't keep pressure off of our QBs. Opposing teams dictate their game plans and will on us, and we don't dictate a thing.

Harris, Logan, Arceneaux, Bighill, Elimiminan and Parks are 6 of the best players in the league. They are playmakers, they make plays...and we do not coach in a way to get them into open spaces where they can unleash their hell. And we have got to start doing this on both sides of the ball...and with Washington, hear this, I don't care if we give up the occasional long TD, start attacking the football in every manner...TURNOVERS win games and championships...our Defences used to LIVE on pressure and turnovers...but under Stubler (a brilliant defensive mind) he changed that to a bend, don't break defence, which is nice because it usually leads the league in statistics, but doesn't will a lot of championships...with guys like Mitchell, Westerman, Smith, Bighill, Sol, JJ, etc. we should be reeking havoc on offences and creating a ton of turnovers, but we don't.

Last night WPG had one INT and no fumbles...no turnovers on downs...nothing remotely crisis like...in fact WPGs offence didn't do a lot, they simply took what we were giving away for free...and for Washington, that's preventing long TDs instead of doubling the slots and taking them out of the passing game.

We were badly out coached again, and in our 2 wins, we were given those games by 2 putrid efforts from the opposition...so we could easily be 0-5...and we have yet to play in CGY, EDM, WPG, TOR, and HAM.
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MexicoLionFan
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DanoT wrote:
The_Pauser wrote:Just want to throw this out there, but the way to the Grey Cup could be via cross-over in the East. Let's face it, barring the unthinkable I don't see 1st place as a possibility for the Lions in the West. Too many good teams out West, and those teams are already starting to pull ahead. While it may be possible to catch one, or two, I don't see us passing all three.

Now, would you rather have to go through Edmonton and Calgary to get to the Grey Cup? Or perhaps Winnipeg and Edmonton (with how good they've looked this year)? Or would you rather crossover and go through two of Hamilton, Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? Give me the crossover and the East.
Finishing ahead of the two worst teams in the east may not be too difficult, but to make the crossover the Lions would need to finish in 4th in the West, ahead of one other western team and I am not sure who that team is going to be.

Dano, I agree 100% SSK is an organization that will not tolerate crap...after our game you would have thought the world ended...that whole province was angry...and the team got rid of 2 players and threatened to do more...you KNOW that SSK is going to improve, and how are going to catch WPG and EDM when they have already won on our turf???

That gong show last night by our offence, left us 17 points down vs. WPG in the total points tie breaker...
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David
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Not much to add to what's already been stated, other than it's galling to read the coach say it's "lack of execution" without him accepting some responsibility for sub-par coaching - from a reluctance to put in extra blockers to pick up the Bombers' frequent stunts and blitzes, to continually sending our LBs to blitz only to be swallowed up, allowing Moore and Denmark to slide into a zone for easy pick-ups (credit the Bomber O-line for its ability to pick-up our pressure almost all game long, and to Willy for his quick accurate reads). Questions for the coaches that had me pulling my hair: why continually pass the ball in 2nd and short, or hand-off deep on 2nd and 2, only to (of course) get stuffed? Why elect to have Hajrullahu kick-off to us following their field goals?!? Did no one do their math homework on this guy and figure out that we'd be fielding kicks inside the 10 and that we would need AT LEAST a 25 yard return to simply 'break even'? We were losing 10-15 yards of field position every time!!

We seemed to be largely devoid of emotion from the opening kick-off onward. BC Place used to have an aura or mystique that would almost psyche teams out, particularly ones that had to come across 2 or 3 time zones. Sadly, it seems to have largely dwindled down to Montreal. Others, like the Bombers, Stamps and especially the Eskimos relish the thought of playing here and with a smallish (but dedicated) following, our Lions aren't feeding enough off the energy of the crowd (they need at least 30,000 in the place to create "atmosphere").

Valli is taking a lot of heat on the board. I didn't hear a lot of the post-game show but I clearly heard Chris Burns strongly suggested a lot of our O-line troubles emanate from the centre position and Valli was over-compensating for what was supposed to be picked up by Norman who's turning his hips. He's been a disappointment this year but it would not surprise me if the Mad Scientist had filled the young man's head with too many complexities.



DH :cool:
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TheLionKing
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Time to simplify things and play sandlot football. Line up and just beat the guy across from you. None of that thinking stuff. Football is not a thinking man's game.
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MexicoLionFan
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TheLionKing wrote:Time to simplify things and play sandlot football. Line up and just beat the guy across from you. None of that thinking stuff. Football is not a thinking man's game.
Great comments David, thank you.

TLK, as usual, you nailed...once again, like 2011, we need to go back to mano e mano football...play hard and fierce. Let our massive OLine steamroll people.
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Rammer
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
sj-roc wrote:
Rammer wrote:Thankfully the Bombers were missing two starting defensive stars, because I can't imagine this O looking much worse than they were last night.
Our worst offensive outing at home, points-wise at least, since a 34-6 loss to Cgy in 1987. That was the last one before they fired Matthews.
At this time, it seems to me the only way Wally changes his HC, is after about two or even three non playoff years. And even then, the OL coach and the ST coach might get foisted on to the new Head Coach.

Some of the Lions' coaches must be thinking: "Hey, where is Jacques to take all the heat?" LOL
JC is on top of the hill now, looking down on the Lions. :)

I will mention this again, but Wally gave Benevides the new contract for a safety net in case the reality of his win/loss record begins to cost fans in the stands. I am sure that Beny was under the gun vs the Riders, as the 0 - 3 record at that point wasn't going to sit well knowing that the next two games are at home.
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notahomer
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Completely agree with a lot of the concerns raised so I'm going to focus on the few highlights I saw.......

Sol E and Biggie sure played the kind of game you like to see. Even they seemed off at times but they brought it 100% on effort.

It was nice to see the Lions D bring out a stop on 3rd short. Short yardage has been a real struggle (its a symptom of a struggling O-line, I'd bet :cool: ) so it was nice to see another team struggle. Too bad they only struggled once......

Courtney Taylors MONSTER YAC catch. I'd don't dont know what the yardage was on the catch but he to have gotten 20plus yards after a solid contact. The shirt he was wearing UNDER his jersey was just ripped to shreds...... Lions offensive highlight of the night, IMO.....
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sj-roc
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notahomer wrote:Courtney Taylors MONSTER YAC catch. I'd don't dont know what the yardage was on the catch but he to have gotten 20plus yards after a solid contact. The shirt he was wearing UNDER his jersey was just ripped to shreds...... Lions offensive highlight of the night, IMO.....
I thought that play, as the first half was starting to wind down, was going to be the one to light a fire under our offence and inspire us to a TD on that drive to wrap the half and go up 10-9. Maybe this would have deflated Wpg to relinquish the lead right at the half after holding it so long and maybe we keep our foot on the gas when we come out for the second half to deliver the win. Instead, the drive stalls on the 3 yard line with time becoming a factor, we kick what amounts to a 3pt convert to only pull us within three, Wpg escapes to the dressing room with a moral victory, and that was the last we heard from our offence on the night.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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I agree WCJ that coaching tend to even out a little more as a season progresses or good players start to make some adjustments on their own to weak coaching but that can only go so far...

I spent most of last nights game watching formation, motion, and our offensive line. I did not see our offensive line beaten or block badly on most one on one matchups.

What I saw was either confused assignments, poor positioning, or completely missed assignments on stunts and blitzes. This is not new. We have been a terrible anti-stunt, anti-blitz offence since Dorazio has been here. We've relied in our passing game on mobile quarterbacks or a quarterback like Dickenson who played about 1/3 of his time on the field and 2/3 in injury bay due to his penchant for taking a hit to make a completion. All of our quarterbacks have taken a severe beating since Dorazio got here and had more than a fair share of injuries. We've too often led the CFL in giving up quarterback sacks or had high sack totals. Glenn is just the new human piñata. You either have to be a very quick release quarterback or very mobile to play QB behind a Dorazio offensive line and even that is tough.

Chap took a beating on Lionbackers but he was badly handicapped by poor offensive line play and not because of our offensive line talent. We just can't pick up blitzes and stunts. Its not complicated. All it takes is a zone offensive pass blocking scheme playing inside out.

So often our offensive lineman miss assignments or are in bad positions. That is mostly coaching. Jones has not understood yet what it took Chap way too long to figure out too...that you just can't go spread offence, even with a tailback blocking, the way Dorazio has our offensive line blocking. You have to go power or misdirection or bootleg. Basically as an offensive coordinator you have to scheme in a way that takes into account that Dorazio is not going to get you the blocking you need to be successful.

Offensive lineman get worse and more confused the longer they play for Dorazio, who changes his blocking schemes like the weather because none of them work. Dean Valli played guard for our 2011 Grey Cup team but we used a lot of motion, formation, and misdirection, along with Lulay's mobility to get it done. Its what we have to do again until Dorazio finally hangs up his cleats.
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DanoT
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I usually don't advocate mid season coach firings usually because there is no replacement available. Well, the Lions have Kelly Bates on staff so I say it is time to FIRE DORAZIO and replace him with Bates. Dorazio has had tenure for too long without accountability so it is finally time to "Move in a different direction" as they like to say.
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I spent most of last nights game watching formation, motion, and our offensive line. I did not see our offensive line beaten or block badly on most one on one matchups.
I did the same thing for the MTL game and I posted the same thing...in fact, Steward was cleanly beaten once against very good MTL pass rushers, and only struggled twice the entire game mano e mano...the only one last night that got beat clean was Valli, and that happened twice. As I have said time and again Blitz, the talent on the OLine is more than fine...as TLK said, and has said many times, lets just line guys up in our sights and fire off the ball...the thing that kills me about Jones is that as a QB and an OC, he was known for big formations, running the football, and then PLAY ACTION passing. Where is our play action this year? We did it once in the first game and Glenn horribly over threw a wide open receiver...If I'm Jones, with Dorazio coaching the OLine, I retreat like Chaps did back to basic formations, a twin set backfield (splitting Lumbala and Logan with Harris), add in as a basic feature the jumbo set, and run the ball in a vertical pattern with dives and traps...because right now, even bellies are too slow developing for this line to adequately block. So far this season when we run dives (I haven't seen a single trap) out of a power formation, we are averaging about 7 - 8 yards per carry. Why aren't we doing this until teams stop us? Now you and I know Blitz that the first thing they teach you in coaching, when something works use it until they prove they can stop you at it...but its more than just that. When a dive works out of a power formation (that's typically 6 OLinemen, 2 Backs, QB, and 3 WRs (Arceneaux, Taylor and Gore) that means we can fake the dive and play action pass...if you run trips receivers to one side, then you can have Gore run a hard crossing pattern across the middle, have Taylor rub Gore's "man" with an intermediate out, and then run Manny Deep, preferably on a flag pattern so the safely can't come across for help (not every team has LaRose). On top of that, Lumbala can stick and roll off of his defender for a quick out, and Harris can run through the fake straight down the middle, putting the safety in a quandary. Now that's just off a simple, quick hitting dive, in the power formation. You can even wrinkle in the Jumbo set with another OLineman, make him WR eligible, and he can go out on a pattern...typically, just delay and go straight ahead. TONS of options for Glenn, with a high chance of success, and a low chance of him being hit.

Now, if a knuckle head like me can diagram this out, ANYBODY can! And how about our offensive woes inside the D's 10 yard line??? HOW??? Here a secret that I thought all OC's knew...once inside the D's 20 yard line (in the CFL, not NFL due to the size of our end zones) defences largely go man to man making them EXTREMELY susceptible to rubs and picks...If the Lions ran a trips formation to the wide side, with Harris cutting across underneath them, we would have a TD 10 out of 10 times...a defence can't simply defend this unless they went zone...and the problem with going zone inside the 20, is that receivers can easily sit down anywhere inside zone coverage for a quick, easy catch, which could be a TD...that's why you "can't" play zone inside the 20. So again, why don't we do this? Why the panicked look on everyone's face when we get inside the 20 yard line? This is easy stuff...RBs have to be covered by LBs inside the 20, unless a Defence goes zone...then you just audible to say an "all hook" call, inside receivers hook at 8 yards, outside receivers at 12 yards, and you take what they give!!!

When basic stuff like this isn't happening, like Washington not being able to design an effective blitz against a SUBPAR WPG OLine, you HAVE to question the coaching.

Finally Blitz, if most of this is on Dorazio (as I now suspect), than I can certainly offer a partial apology to Chapdelaine...however, JC simply wouldn't STAY with what worked...the moment we got on any role, he wanted to go right back to his spread offence, which was brilliantly designed but COULD NOT be properly executed with the personnel that we had...now, if that was due to Dorazio, then as an OC (not matter who the coach and GM is/are) you MUST make a stand and demand FULL CONTROL of the offence. This is likely why the Lions have had so few Cups during our brilliant run with Wally (sound familiar Wally?) because Dorazio's OLines have not been able to execute what the OC diagramed. But that is no excuse...in fact I have NEVER heard of an OC not having complete control over an Offence until Wally's tenure here.
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MexicoLionFan
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DanoT wrote:I usually don't advocate mid season coach firings usually because there is no replacement available. Well, the Lions have Kelly Bates on staff so I say it is time to FIRE DORAZIO and replace him with Bates. Dorazio has had tenure for too long without accountability so it is finally time to "Move in a different direction" as they like to say.
I tend to agree as well Dano, but the sooner MB/Dorazio are gone, IMO, the better off we will be. Kelly Bates is a very bright guy, and a great OLineman in this league. Its been Kelly's drafting that has "saved" the Lions franchise in many ways because he has recovered very quickly from all the years we misfired under Benevides over seeing the draft, and brought OL that could "rise above" the coaching of Dorazio...the thing I hate the most with this zone blocking technique is that it has Lineman moving laterally WAY TOO MUCH...and on 300 lb frames that is a very dangerous proposition. When OL move forwards they have zero chance over injury...when they back pedal the risk increases (as they can't see), and when they move laterally, it rises exponentially...and why don't we ever chop block??? Its the easiest way to give your QB a guaranteed 3 seconds to throw the football...a complete waste of technique here!
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