Should the Washington Redskins Change Their Team Name?

Discuss the NHL, NFL, CIS, NCAA, Lacrosse, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, Motorsports, Golf, Rugby, Amateur Sport, Curling, Wrestling ... Whatever Sport or Leisure activity you like!

Moderator: Team Captains

Post Reply
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9793
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

South Pender wrote:Sorry, double post.
Other posters here see what you are doing to discredit others - you're not fooling anyone.

The context is clear .. you are a joke. It is no wonder that
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

Toppy Vann wrote:
South Pender wrote:Sorry, double post.
Other posters here see what you are doing to discredit others - you're not fooling anyone.

The context is clear .. you are a joke. It is no wonder that
Hey, TV. I think other posters have seen pretty clearly your attacks on me. You can't go on the attack (and it's never been clear to me why you chose to attack me in the first place, but let's forget about that) and expect others to just lie down. And calling another forum member a joke. Really, TV; get a grip. I'd like to call this negative back-and-forth off once and for all. Again I suggest we just not respond to each other's posts. That would end it right there. Is that really so hard for you to do?

Tell you what. You can have the last word in this exchange. Throw out whatever insults you want to. But then let's just agree to disagree and not respond to each other's posts any more.
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9793
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

South Pender wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:
South Pender wrote:Sorry, double post.
Other posters here see what you are doing to discredit others - you're not fooling anyone.

The context is clear .. you are a joke. It is no wonder that
Hey, TV. I think other posters have seen pretty clearly your attacks on me. You can't go on the attack (and it's never been clear to me why you chose to attack me in the first place, but let's forget about that) and expect others to just lie down. And calling another forum member a joke. Really, TV; get a grip. I'd like to call this negative back-and-forth off once and for all. Again I suggest we just not respond to each other's posts. That would end it right there. Is that really so hard for you to do?

Tell you what. You can have the last word in this exchange. Throw out whatever insults you want to. But then let's just agree to disagree and not respond to each other's posts any more.
For a guy who keeps typing, 'let's not comment on each other's posts', you keep commenting and twisting mine just to negate equally valid views - or in this case - discredit my posts. I seem to be your new target.

My posts here were to add information on the topic that some might find of interest and the last contribution which listed team names including SEAHAWKS was - I believed - a good read to make posters aware that the Redskins is not the only name some don't like. You taking my top of list phrase out of context attempts to discredit me when the article was clear from the start the list goes from least worst to worst. But you can't resist calling me out on that.

Am I supposed to surrender or something?

The simpler solution is to discuss issues and not twist posts to try and discredit the other poster.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
User avatar
notahomer
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:09 pm
Location: Vancouver

Super Mayor Rob Ford sees nothing wrong with the current team name of the Washington franchise....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/r ... -1.2450913

A Washington DC radio station will be hosting Ford for his 'picks' on the NFL.

IMO, the fact Ford doesn't think it matters IS MORE PROOF that it does......
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9793
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

notahomer wrote:Super Mayor Rob Ford sees nothing wrong with the current team name of the Washington franchise....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/r ... -1.2450913

A Washington DC radio station will be hosting Ford for his 'picks' on the NFL.

IMO, the fact Ford doesn't think it matters IS MORE PROOF that it does......
Let's hope that this clown's view of the CFL doesn't follow this same logic pattern and lead to people saying this "IS MORE PROOF that it does" not matter to Canadians.

No wonder the CFL and Argos asked him to stay home from the East final.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
User avatar
KnowItAll
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7458
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:32 pm
Location: Delta

Every day that passes is one you can't get back
User avatar
notahomer
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:09 pm
Location: Vancouver

Toppy Vann wrote:Let's hope that this clown's view of the CFL doesn't follow this same logic pattern and lead to people saying this "IS MORE PROOF that it does" not matter to Canadians.

No wonder the CFL and Argos asked him to stay home from the East final.
I know he attended the latest NFL game there. One tweeter claims Ford sat in his seat. Ford is obviously a MAJOR football fan. I'll give him credit for one thing, he's tried Coaching. I don't know if he made a good coach or not but the fact he would try is something I do respect him for (wait a minute :bang: Did I just say I respect Rob Ford? :bang: But unfortunately I do. Coaching/teaching is something that is hard to do well, IMO and the fact he tried is worth something....)
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9793
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

notahomer wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:Let's hope that this clown's view of the CFL doesn't follow this same logic pattern and lead to people saying this "IS MORE PROOF that it does" not matter to Canadians.

No wonder the CFL and Argos asked him to stay home from the East final.
I know he attended the latest NFL game there. One tweeter claims Ford sat in his seat. Ford is obviously a MAJOR football fan. I'll give him credit for one thing, he's tried Coaching. I don't know if he made a good coach or not but the fact he would try is something I do respect him for (wait a minute :bang: Did I just say I respect Rob Ford? :bang: But unfortunately I do. Coaching/teaching is something that is hard to do well, IMO and the fact he tried is worth something....)
The TSN video of Rob Ford at the EDF after being asked to stay away was one of fans in the stands hi fiving, cheering and toasting him with beer, etc.

This latest allegation of trying to buy back a tape of him allegedly using crack or whatever is beyond belief. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/0 ... 86774.html

While he has a strong football background this latest stuff has to be the tipping point - how he can survive with videos of him crazily saying he'll f...g kill some guy, etc - even if just a manner of speaking and no intent.

Any support he can muster for any cause has to be dwindling fast now. CNN International devoted a lot of time again today to this latest stuff.

I am sure the Redskins owner won't be getting Rob Ford doing ad clips supporting their team name.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

This, from Pro Football Talk:

Religious leaders speak out against “Redskins” name
Posted by Michael David Smith on December 5, 2013, 9:27 AM EST
Washington Redskins team owner Dan Snyder is pictured before the Washington Redskins vs Dallas Cowboys NFL football game in Landover Reuters

A large group of Washington, D.C., religious leaders have become the latest to openly campaign against the use of the name “Redskins.”

In a letter signed by leaders of Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, United Church of Christ, AME, Presbyterian, Unitarian, Jewish, Buddhist and Muslim faith groups, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and team owner Dan Snyder have been called upon to change the name.

“As faith leaders in our nation’s capital, we feel we must take a stand on an important moral issue at the forefront of local and national consciousness: the offensive and inappropriate name of Washington’s NFL team,” the letter states. “The derogatory term ‘redskin’ offends many Native Americans and others in this country. This word, defined in the dictionary as a slur, should not be publicly marketed and celebrated in America, which is built on the ideals of respect and inclusion.”

Rev. Graylan Hagler, who recruited 60 religious leaders to join him in signing the letter, told USA Today all of the religious leaders he spoke with agree about the cause, although some declined to sign the letter because their faith groups have no formal position about the “Redskins” name.

“If you use that word about a group of people, you characterize them as less than human,” Hagler said. “You have stripped them of their humanity and taken away the likeness of God that is within all of us.”

Goodell has said the decision on the team’s name is up to Snyder, and Snyder has said he will never change his mind. Those who oppose the name may never stop pressuring Snyder to reconsider.
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

Here's the statement from the American Psychological Association that I mentioned in an earlier post. It's a summary of an APA resolution issued in 2005 about the harmful effects on American Indian children that result from stereotyping, and, in particular (in this context) with the use of mascots that reinforce stereotypes. For those who don't know, the American Psychological Association is the major organization that oversees and publishes research in Psychology. Its status is roughly equivalent to that of the American Medical Association and other top professional and academic associations. Any recommendations they would make would be based on empirical research performed to a high standard. If I can find the time, I may start looking for the research studies that have led to this resolution, along with those that have been done in the eight years since its publication, to see how close they come to the present issue of the Washington football team's name.
____________________________________________________________________________________

Summary of the APA Resolution Recommending Retirement of American Indian Mascots

"The use of American Indian mascots as symbols in schools and university athletic programs is particularly troubling because schools are places of learning. These mascots are teaching stereotypical, misleading and too often, insulting images of American Indians. These negative lessons are not just affecting American Indian students; they are sending the wrong message to all students."

- Former APA President Ronald F. Levant, EdD
Retirement of American Indian Mascots

In 2005 the American Psychological Association (APA) called for the immediate retirement of all American Indian mascots, symbols, images and personalities by schools, colleges, universities, athletic teams and organizations. APA's position is based on a growing body of social science literature that shows the harmful effects of racial stereotyping and inaccurate racial portrayals, including the particularly harmful effects of American Indian sports mascots on the social identity development and self-esteem of American Indian young people.

Research has shown that the continued use of American Indian mascots, symbols, images, and personalities has a negative effect on not only American Indians students but all students by:

Undermining the educational experiences of members of all communities-especially those who have had little or no contact with Indigenous peoples. The symbols, images and mascots teach non-Indian children that it's acceptable to participate in culturally abusive behavior and perpetuate inaccurate misconceptions about American Indian culture.

Establishes an unwelcome and often times hostile learning environment for American Indians students that affirms negative images/stereotypes that are promoted in mainstream society.

According to Dr. Stephanie Fryberg, University of Arizona, this appears to have a negative impact on the self-esteem of American Indian children. "American Indian mascots are harmful not only because they are often negative, but because they remind American Indians of the limited ways in which others see them. This in turn restricts the number of ways American Indians can see themselves."

Undermines the ability of American Indian Nations to portray accurate and respectful images of their culture, spirituality, and traditions. Many American Indians report that they find today's typical portrayal of American Indian culture disrespectful and offensive to their spiritual beliefs.

Presents stereotypical images of American Indians
Such mascots are a contemporary example of prejudice by the dominant culture against racial and ethnic minority groups.

Is a form of discrimination against American Indian Nations that can lead to negative relations between groups.

"We know from the literature that oppression, covert and overt racism, and perceived racism can have serious negative consequences for the mental health of American Indian and Alaska native (AIAN) people. The discontinued use of American Indian mascots is a gesture to show that this kind of racism toward and the disrespect of, all people in our country and in the larger global context, will not be tolerated," said Dr. Lisa Thomas, APA Committee on Ethnic and Minority Affairs.

To eradicate the hurtful presence of stereotypical imaging of Americans Indians the American Psychological Association encourages continued research on the psychological effects that these mascots, symbols, images, and personalities have on American Indians communities and others; and

American Psychological Association is calling upon all psychologists to speak out against racism, and take proactive steps to prevent the occurrence of intolerant or racist acts and recommends the immediate retirement of American Indians mascots, symbols, images, and personalities by schools, colleges, universities, athletic teams, and organizations.

This document is based on the APA American Indian Mascot Resolution adopted by the Association's Council for Representatives in September 2005.

Full text of the official APA American Indian Mascot Resolution can be found here.
For more information

Office of Public Communications
(202) 336-5700

Office of Ethnic Minority Affairs
(202) 336-6050

TDD (202) 336-6123
_____________________________________________________________________________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And just to add a bit to the above, here is an article from Psychology Today that constitutes a very brief summary of the issue of the effects of stereotyping, citing some research done at the University of Michigan. Now Psychology Today is a popular magazine, not a serious research journal, but the author, Dr. Sam Sommers, is a very competent social psychologist.

Here is his concluding paragraph:
___________________________

"In the end, these data [from the University of Michigan studies] pose a problem for claims that these mascots are honorific and likely to enhance the self-esteem of Native Americans. Even when that is (or has recently become) the motivation behind a team name, such good intent is not sufficient to bring about good outcomes. As the authors of the paper described above explain, “American Indian mascots do not have negative consequences because their content or meaning is inherently negative. Rather… [the mascots] remind American Indians of the limited ways in which others see them.” (Bold italics mine)
___________________________

The research he cites is analog research done in the lab. I'll look for more of this, along with, I hope, some field research too.
User avatar
notahomer
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:09 pm
Location: Vancouver

Toppy Vann wrote: .........This latest allegation of trying to buy back a tape of him allegedly using crack or whatever is beyond belief. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/0 ... 86774.html

While he has a strong football background this latest stuff has to be the tipping point - how he can survive with videos of him crazily saying he'll f...g kill some guy, etc - even if just a manner of speaking and no intent.

Any support he can muster for any cause has to be dwindling fast now. CNN International devoted a lot of time again today to this latest stuff.

I am sure the Redskins owner won't be getting Rob Ford doing ad clips supporting their team name.
I don't disagree at all. I was REALLY, REALLY trying to find some good in the guy. I know he's got a good rep as Mayor based on some stuff he's done but he should have stepped down MONTHS ago, IMO. The transcript yesterday is really troubling. A lot is focussed on him possibly using heroin etc... but he also allegedly says he'll use his postion to get the Police after some of these characters. That, if true, is really bad judgement, IMO. He can and should be charged, if the evidence exists......
User avatar
notahomer
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6258
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:09 pm
Location: Vancouver

http://www.capebretonpost.com/Opinion/E ... e-begone/1

Nova Scotian MLA had a photo of his wife and himself posing with a Christmas character from Dutch Culture in 'blackface'. He puzzlingly said it was not for anyone except Africans and Dutch people themselves to discuss whether it should be changed culturally.

I understand, kind of. Just because it has been done for years doesn't mean it should still be getting done, IMO.......
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

notahomer wrote:http://www.capebretonpost.com/Opinion/E ... e-begone/1

Nova Scotian MLA had a photo of his wife and himself posing with a Christmas character from Dutch Culture in 'blackface'. He puzzlingly said it was not for anyone except Africans and Dutch people themselves to discuss whether it should be changed culturally.

I understand, kind of. Just because it has been done for years doesn't mean it should still be getting done, IMO.......
How can a politician be so utterly stupid? He probably had no racist intent, but the optics, in the political arena, are just awful. He's quickly and tearfully backtracked according to the article you provided. There's a fair-sized black population in Nova Scotia. Many are the descendants of the "Black Loyalists" who fled to Canada after the American Revolution, along with many who arrived there via the "Underground Railway" from the U.S. prior to the Civil War.
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

Churches propose Redskins boycott
Posted by Mike Florio on March 3, 2014, 10:11 AM EST

It’s Monday, which means that it’s time for the Washington Redskins to unveil the latest collection of unverified messages from Native Americans who made unsolicited expressions of support for owner Daniel Snyder’s October 2013 letter defending the team’s name.

And they have, with another seven of the more than 200 people who identified themselves as Native Americans or as family members of Native Americans.

But the team may want to start paying a little more attention to Sundays, not Mondays. As explained over the weekend by Carol Morello of the Washington Post, the governing body of the United Church of Christ congregations in the Mid-Atlantic has proposed a boycott of Redskins games and products until the team changes its name and mascot.

The group covers 180 congregations and 22,000 members, and the proposal could land on the agenda of the conference’s annual meeting in June.

“We respect those who disagree with our team’s name, but we wish the United Church of Christ would listen to the voice of the overwhelming majority of Americans, including Native Americans, who support our name and understand it honors the heritage and tradition of the Native American community,” team spokesman Tony Wyllie told the Post.

The team keeps calling the support “overwhelming,” but that’s hardly the case. In 1992, support was much closer to overwhelming, at 89 percent. Last April, an Associated Press poll showed that it had eroded to 79 percent.

More recently, it’s down to 71 percent.

That’s not overwhelming. And it’s continuously shrinking. Most recently, the issue has remained periodically in the news, at varying degrees of intensity, for more than a full year. Now that the team has joined the issue by actively and regularly defending the name, it will stay in the public eye.

Overall, the trend isn’t encouraging. At some point, the support will move toward 50-50. Then, those who believe the name is appropriate will be in the minority.

As conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer explained it last year, it’s part of the evolution of language. Words that were once acceptable become, over time, inappropriate. At some point, the consensus will be so clear that the name can’t continue that the name will change.

While that may not happen during Snyder’s tenure as owner, it eventually will. Even if Snyder sticks to his “all caps never” vow, his team’s decision to consistently make the case for keeping the name guarantees that the issue will continue to hover over the franchise until the name inevitably changes.
______________________________________________________________________________________

I don't agree with a lot that Krauthammer writes, but I think he's onto something with his point about the evolution of language. And I think Florio's right about the inevitable decline in support for the team's current name. I think it will take time, but the day will come, I believe, that will see a name change.
South Pender
Legend
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am
Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends

Possibly another way to Dan Snyder's heart (assuming he has one)?

Nancy Pelosi says Redskins should lose their trademark

Posted by Michael David Smith on March 13, 2014, 4:25 PM EDT

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi says the word “Redskins” is a slur that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office should not protect.

“We all respect freedom of speech, but the trademark office has rejected names which are considered offensive and they should do it now,” Pelosi told the National Congress of American Indians, via the Huffington Post. “They can keep their name on the team, but when it comes to all the stuff — that’s serious money. So I think that is one path that we can go.”

The NFL and its teams have trademarks that prevent unauthorized sellers from selling merchandise with team names, colors and logos. Losing the trademark on the name would allow anyone to print knockoff Redskins gear and cost the team and the league millions of dollars a year in merchandising.

Dan Snyder may not be willing to change the Redskins’ name because some Native Americans are offended by it, but he would likely change his mind on the subject if losing the trademark affected the team’s profitability.
Post Reply