Why only one kicking specialist in Canton?

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sj-roc
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Just came across this article from CBS sports pointing out that placekickers and punters have been almost totally shunned from the PFHOF in the USA. This is interesting from a Canadian perspective because that is not the case for our CFHOF, with several kickers having been enshrined from a talent pool that not only is smaller but also had matured into a specialist role somewhat later than it did in the NFL: Bob Cameron, Dave Cutler, Dave Ridgway and last but not least our very own Lui Passaglia. It seems to underscore a more important role for the kicker, and special teams in general, in the Canadian game.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2015 ... -in-canton

Excerpt:
Akers' booming feat raises question: Why only one specialist in Canton?
By Clark Judge | Senior NFL Columnist
Sep. 11, 2012 4:12 PM ET

Shortly after San Francisco's David Akers tied an NFL record by launching a 63-yard missile Sunday, coach Jim Harbaugh called him "the greatest kicker in the history of the game." I don't know about that, but I do know this: No matter how great David Akers is, he probably doesn't get a sniff at the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

That's not based on presumption; it's based on fact.

There's exactly one specialist in Canton, and he was there Sunday to witness Akers' record-tying field goal and to meet the 49ers' kicker after halftime. I'm talking about Jan Stenerud, the former Green Bay and Kansas City kicker who was inducted into the Hall 21 years ago.

That was a start, but it was also an end. Because after Stenerud, there's been nothing, and that includes the game's greatest punter, Ray Guy.

Call it an oversight, but I call it a mistake. And so does David Akers.

"I think there definitely needs to be punters and kickers in the Hall," he said. "I mean, you're telling me Ray Guy isn't in the Hall of Fame? Look, you can say what you want about the position, but we didn't create it. The position is part of football. So, if you're saying they're the best guys who ever played that position, then they definitely should be in the Hall of Fame."
The article is rather pessimistic that this HOF situation will improve, even as it goes on to note that special teams are becoming an increasingly crucial part of the American game, citing several recent instances where the outcome of a game turned, for better or worse, on the contributions (or lack thereof) of special teams play, and of the players who play on them exclusively. I suppose what with all the parity the NFL trumpets nowadays, teams are looking for an edge any way they can get it.

There's no doubt in my mind that the people who get paid to field CFL teams, particularly the ones who have been most successful at it, have already long had a deep appreciation for the crucial role of special teams, and the rule differences in the kicking aspects of our game would seem to have hastened this. I recall in particularly an interview with Ron Lancaster while he was coaching the Eskimos, where he identified ST as one of the three phases of the game on equal footing with offence and defence, and that to win a game you have to win at least two of those three phases.

And of course, this board is no stranger to discussions of how the quality of our own team's ST performance affects our place in the standings.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
TheLionKing
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A lot of people don't consider kickers as athletes.
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Tighthead
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I think the problem with kickers and punters in the NFL is that the PFHoF is very hard to get into, and the very best K/P are only marginally better than the next level of players.

I know Ray Guy was known for booming his punts, but several old timers say he outkicked his coverage and kicked for gross, not for net.

As for kickers, there has been some talk of Viniatieri ebing enshrined. Older guys are hooped because the current crop is expected to kick at 85% or so. Again, there are several exceptional PKs in the NFL right now, but none really stand out. Shane Lechler is the best punter perhaps, but they are all quite good so the best punter doesn't have the same impact that the best CB, QB, etc. does.

I think most NFL coaches emphasize STs as much as CFL coaches do - I have always heard the 2/3 thing in the NFL as well, and they have long had pro bowl returners and cover guys.
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Toppy Vann
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TheLionKing wrote:A lot of people don't consider kickers as athletes.
Deep down this is likely a major consideration in selector thinking along with the fact that every team has outstanding elite players and kickers are an afterthought.

I also think it is the nature of the NFL game for kickers vs say the CFL where kicking and tactics are much more in play on the bigger field and you get kickers like Lui Passaglia who did not more than just P and FG kicking - they did a lot of very successful fakes.
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WestCoastJoe
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I would actually be in favor of removing kicking from football altogether.

Aside from kickoffs, it is conceivable that a game is played without any punts or FGs. Kickers sit around for much of the game, and also at practice. It seems to me that kicking is an extraneous part of the game.

I recall seeing this discussed somewhere a few years ago. Ain't gonna happen however.

The removal of kicking would reward the team that moves the ball on offence.

Can you imagine the emphasis on moving the ball, from deep in your own zone, if you were not allowed to punt it away?

Look at the advantage to the team that stops the opponent deep in their own territory.

I don't think the removal of kicking would lower the scoring. I believe it would greatly increase the TD scoring.

Ties? Do a tie breaker.

Extreme? Yeah, but it fits in with why kickers don't get into the NFL HoF.

Aside from all this consideration, in the CFL, kick returns are wildly exciting, and kicking is a huge part of the game.

But I do agree with those such as legendary defensive tackle Alex Karras who say that kickers are golfers, not subject to the level of risk of the other football gladiators.

I remember Karras mimicking Garo Yepremian, an early European soccer style kicker, who kicked a FG, and then ran up and down the field screaming: "I keeck a touchdown. I keeck a touchdown." And then there was the squirted ball of soap Yepremian coughed up vs the Redskins in the Super Bowl. Didn't do much for the image of kickers in the NFL.
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notahomer
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Ask the Buffalo Bill's if kicking doesn't matter. Wide right.

No, I'm not saying Norwood deserves the Hall of Fame. Kicking is such a crucial part of both games of football. Look how many yards the BC Lions GAVE away, by kicking the ball out of bounds in the Grey Cup game versus the Argos a few seasons back. And of course the now re-editted Grey Cup video that talked about 12 men winning it or 13 men losing it, referring to the Aloettes magical victory over the Greenies. Kickers seem to be the Rodney Dangerfields of football until they are being counted on to either tie or win a football game in the later stages. Lui would have been famous forever here regardless but doesn't that last play field goal on home turf to beat the American 'Stallions' make his story that little bit more special?

Maybe its the Canadian game and its rules. Kickers seem to have always and probably always will have an important role in the CFL I have watched. One thing I haven't seen in either league (but I think I saw in the 80's in the CFL), is the quick kick. A team would punt on second down. Usually this would have been done by the quarterback. I don't know why, because it was only second down, except for the fact teams would not be expecting it. Is it my imagination or were 'quick kicks' something that used to be in the game that seem to have dissappeared......?

I read the book Freakanomics and it said something about the stats proving that teams shouldn't kick/punt the football. I think I could accept a league that didn't allow punting. Field goals? not so sure. I love the field goal and possible missed field goal return.........
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sj-roc
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notahomer wrote:Ask the Buffalo Bill's if kicking doesn't matter. Wide right.

No, I'm not saying Norwood deserves the Hall of Fame. Kicking is such a crucial part of both games of football. Look how many yards the BC Lions GAVE away, by kicking the ball out of bounds in the Grey Cup game versus the Argos a few seasons back. And of course the now re-editted Grey Cup video that talked about 12 men winning it or 13 men losing it, referring to the Aloettes magical victory over the Greenies. Kickers seem to be the Rodney Dangerfields of football until they are being counted on to either tie or win a football game in the later stages. Lui would have been famous forever here regardless but doesn't that last play field goal on home turf to beat the American 'Stallions' make his story that little bit more special?

Maybe its the Canadian game and its rules. Kickers seem to have always and probably always will have an important role in the CFL I have watched. One thing I haven't seen in either league (but I think I saw in the 80's in the CFL), is the quick kick. A team would punt on second down. Usually this would have been done by the quarterback. I don't know why, because it was only second down, except for the fact teams would not be expecting it. Is it my imagination or were 'quick kicks' something that used to be in the game that seem to have dissappeared......?

I read the book Freakanomics and it said something about the stats proving that teams shouldn't kick/punt the football. I think I could accept a league that didn't allow punting. Field goals? not so sure. I love the field goal and possible missed field goal return.........
Matt Dunigan's Stampeders unleashed a perfectly executed onside punt recovery (NOT from punting formation but on the fly) for what should have been the game winning TD on the last play of a game at BC Place in 2004 but the officials incorrectly called no yards on the player who recovered the ball. There was still no video review in those days but this is likely one of the plays that fomented its institution.

I recall in the 90s occasionally seeing an attempted quick kick through the end zone for a single on the last play of the half when it was clear that there would be no other way to score before time expired. I think Bret Anderson tried it a few times back then, as well as Jock Climie. There was a Lions game in Sacramento, 1994 this was, where Mike Trevathan unsuccessfully attempted a game winning single score. With the score tied 15-15 on the last play of the 10-min overtime session — OT format was still two 5-min halves back then — he pulled in a pass around the Sac 40 and kicked it downfield on the fly. He was too well-covered to run it all the way in for the major, although I recall thinking at that point that he had time to run another 10-15 yards or so before booting it. The ball didn't even reach the end zone; a Sac defender who scooped it up got tackled to preserve the tie score.

If we got rid of any scoring that could come from the kicking game, it would almost be just as well to make TDs worth only one point. Only the preservation of safety touch scores would prevent that from being a perfectly reasonable step.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
TheLionKing
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Saskatchewan Roughriders' Allan Ford was a master of the quick kick.
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Tighthead
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Randall Cuningham once managed 91 yards on a quick kick.
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squishy35
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IIRC in 1983, Lui Passaglia averaged 50.1 yards per punt over the season.... the first (and only?) time this was acheived in CFL history. I don't know if that has been acheived in the NFL....?
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sj-roc
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squishy35 wrote:IIRC in 1983, Lui Passaglia averaged 50.1 yards per punt over the season.... the first (and only?) time this was acheived in CFL history. I don't know if that has been acheived in the NFL....?
Jon Ryan broke that record for the Bombers in 2005, while also leading the league in number of punts, before he moved on to the NFL where he's played ever since, with a 45.0 career average through Week 2 of 2012.

http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Punting/year/2005

http://www.nfl.com/player/jonryan/2506613/careerstats
Last edited by sj-roc on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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squishy35
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sj-roc wrote:
squishy35 wrote:IIRC in 1983, Lui Passaglia averaged 50.1 yards per punt over the season.... the first (and only?) time this was acheived in CFL history. I don't know if that has been acheived in the NFL....?
Jon Ryan broke that record for the Bombers in 2005, while also leading the league in number of punts, before he moving on to the NFL where he's played ever since, with a 45.0 career average through Week 2 of 2012.

http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Punting/year/2005

http://www.nfl.com/player/jonryan/2506613/careerstats

ah yes, I recall that... thanks for the stats :)
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sj-roc
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WestCoastJoe wrote:But I do agree with those such as HoF defensive tackle Alex Karras who say that kickers are golfers, far beneath the level of the other football gladiators.

I remember Karras mimicking Garo Yepremian, an early European soccer style kicker, who kicked a FG, and then ran up and down the field screaming: "I keeck a touchdown. I keeck a touchdown." And then there was the squirted ball of soap Yepremian coughed up vs the Redskins in the Super Bowl. Didn't do much for the image of kickers in the NFL.
I see Garo Yepremian passed away this weekend.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/former-dol ... --spt.html
Former Dolphins kicker Garo Yepremian dies at 70
Associated Press By STEVEN WINE
May 15, 2015 11:56 PM


MIAMI (AP) — Garo Yepremian, the former NFL kicker who helped the Miami Dolphins win consecutive NFL championships but is best remembered for a Super Bowl blooper, died Friday of cancer. He was 70.

Yepremian's wife, Maritza, said he died at a hospital in Media, Pennsylvania. His illness was diagnosed in May 2014, she said.

Yepremian (ya-PREM-ee-an) played from 1966 to 1981. The native of Cyprus came to the United States at age 22 and kicked in the first NFL game he ever saw.

His 37-yard field goal in the second overtime ended the longest game in NFL history, a Dolphins' playoff victory over Kansas City on Christmas 1971, and he helped Miami win back-to-back NFL titles in 1972-73. But Yepremian's gaffe in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl in January 1973 nearly spoiled the Dolphins' bid to complete a purrfect season.

With Miami leading 14-0 and on the verge of finishing the season 17-0, the Washington Redskins blocked Yepremian's field-goal attempt. He picked up the ball and tried to throw it but fumbled, and the Redskins' Mike Bass ran it 49 yards for a touchdown.

"Every airport you go to, people point to you and say, 'Here's the guy who screwed up in the Super Bowl,'" Yepremian said in a 2007 interview. "After a while it bothers you. If it was anybody else he would go crazy, but fortunately I'm a happy-go-lucky guy."

Decades later, Pro Football Hall of Fame coach Don Shula was able to laugh as he reminisced about the play — perhaps the weirdest in Super Bowl history.

"I thought, 'Boy, this will be great if Garo kicks this field goal and we go ahead 17-0 in a 17-0 season. What a great way that would be to remember the game,'" Shula said. "And then Garo did what he did, and it's 14-7 with still a couple of minutes to go. I'm looking for Garo, and I'm ready to kill Garo, and I couldn't find him. He went down to one end of the bench, and I haven't seen him since."

Despite Yepremian's mistake, Miami won to complete the NFL's only purrfect season. Yepremian also kicked for the Dolphins when they repeated as champions in 1973. Prematurely bald and only 5-foot-8, the left-legged Yepremian hardly looked like an NFL star.

He broke in with the Detroit Lions, who signed him as their first soccer-style kicker when that approach was a novelty. As a rookie in 1966 he broke a league record with six field goals in a game at Minnesota. He joined the Dolphins in 1970, made the Pro Bowl twice with them and led the league in field-goal accuracy three times. He also kicked for the New Orleans Saints and Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Private funeral arrangements are pending. A viewing is planned Wednesday in Wynnewood, Pennsylvania.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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It just shows how little importance is placed on the position by the PFHOF. George Blanda (also QB) and Lou Groza (also OT) are the other 2 Kicker inductees but a sizable part of their careers were spent at those other positions.
The value of the kicker in the CFL is much greater due our game's differences, all of which make the CFL the more exciting game it's always been.
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BC 1988 wrote:It just shows how little importance is placed on the position by the PFHOF. George Blanda (also QB) and Lou Groza (also OT) are the other 2 Kicker inductees but a sizable part of their careers were spent at those other positions.
The value of the kicker in the CFL is much greater due our game's differences, all of which make the CFL the more exciting game it's always been.
Exactly spot on.

When you can kick off and send the ball out the end zone for no return and on the narrower, shorter field it changes the importance of the kicking game (and not to forget the fair catch rule).

The Blanda days - as you rightly note - the players weren't specialist kickers and players often played offense and defense unlike today.

Today our overly cautious coaches don't take chances and you don't see:

> the quick kick on second down
> the pass and punt into the end zone play Calgary's Dunigan pulled off for a winning game play vs the BC Lions at BC Place (wrecked by a bad ref call)
> punts out of the end zone and back in (rarity but I have seen guys like Harvey Wylie for the Stamps punt it out and have it come back.


With Miami leading 14-0 and on the verge of finishing the season 17-0, the Washington Redskins blocked Yepremian's field-goal attempt. He picked up the ball and tried to throw it but fumbled, and the Redskins' Mike Bass ran it 49 yards for a touchdown.

"Every airport you go to, people point to you and say, 'Here's the guy who screwed up in the Super Bowl,'" Yepremian said in a 2007 interview. "After a while it bothers you. If it was anybody else he would go crazy, but fortunately I'm a happy-go-lucky guy."
People are pretty stupid and insensitive to keep bringing that up. It'd be like us bringing up Paul McCallum's miss in BC Place to give the Riders the loss and BC the win. Not very smart and we'd not do it. Well most of us wouldn't.
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