closer to home, we continue to do real wrong against first nations peoples
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... e16767615/
First nations people should be the most important people in NA. Any decision on anything that affects first nations in any way should only be made when first nations affected are in agreement, and that includes environment issues. We owe it to them.
Maybe if they got treated right on real important issues, they might not be so concerned about a team name.
Should the Washington Redskins Change Their Team Name?
Moderator: Team Captains
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South Pender
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From today's (March 17) Pro Football Talk:
Native American leader believes Redskins have tried to discredit Ray Halbritter
Posted by Mike Florio on March 17, 2014, 3:40 PM EDT
The question of whether the Washington NFL franchise should continue to be known as “Redskins” continues to be an issue, in part because the team continues every Monday to publish “Community Voices,” a collection of messages supposedly from Native Americans or family members of Native Americans supporting the name.
The latest collection, Community Voices VI (Roman numerals make everything more official), comes a day the spiritual leader of the Six Nations suggested that the Redskins have been trying to find ways to undermine the efforts of Oneida Indian Nation representative Ray Halbritter by attacking him personally.
“I felt like they were looking for something, that they wanted me to discredit Ray, and I wasn’t going to go there,” Sid Hill told Sean Kirst of the Syracuse Post-Standard regarding a phone call Hill received from a representative of the team. “The backlash Ray’s received is kind of scary,” Hill said. “It’s like they’re trying to discredit the witness.”
“It is hardly surprising that the team marketing a racial slur against Native Americans is evidently working to further denigrate Native Americans with personal attacks,” Oneida Indian Nation Vice President for Communications Joel Barkin said in a press release. “For all its rhetoric about respect, the team officials’ ugly tactics prove that they lack real respect for Native Americans.”
Hill, for his part, disagrees with the name. He says the term is a taunt and an insult. But the team’s increasingly sophisticated P.R. effort has found a way to twist opposition from Native American leaders like Sid Hill into a way to further support the ongoing use of the name.
“The conversation with Mr. Hill helped us to see how important it is to listen and respect the points of view of all people, even those who disagree with us,” team P.R. representative Tony Wyllie told the Post-Standard. “We hope those who disagree with us will also be willing to listen and respect our point of view as well.”
That’s where the logic of the effort to keep the name begins to collapse. Either the name falls within the realm of subjects on which reasonable minds may differ or it doesn’t. And if the Redskins acknowledge that reasonable minds may differ on the question of whether the team’s name is offensive to Native Americans, some would say that’s enough to justify a change.
But the approach to dealing with seemingly reasonable opposition is to say, basically, “We hear you. And we hope you hear us. Because we’re not changing the name.”
That may work for the next few years. At some point, however, the polls will show a level of opposition that can’t be ignored or shouted down or discredited. The ongoing effort to support the name via weekly press releases likely represents an acknowledgement that, at this point, the only victory comes from delaying the inevitable as long as possible.
Native American leader believes Redskins have tried to discredit Ray Halbritter
Posted by Mike Florio on March 17, 2014, 3:40 PM EDT
The question of whether the Washington NFL franchise should continue to be known as “Redskins” continues to be an issue, in part because the team continues every Monday to publish “Community Voices,” a collection of messages supposedly from Native Americans or family members of Native Americans supporting the name.
The latest collection, Community Voices VI (Roman numerals make everything more official), comes a day the spiritual leader of the Six Nations suggested that the Redskins have been trying to find ways to undermine the efforts of Oneida Indian Nation representative Ray Halbritter by attacking him personally.
“I felt like they were looking for something, that they wanted me to discredit Ray, and I wasn’t going to go there,” Sid Hill told Sean Kirst of the Syracuse Post-Standard regarding a phone call Hill received from a representative of the team. “The backlash Ray’s received is kind of scary,” Hill said. “It’s like they’re trying to discredit the witness.”
“It is hardly surprising that the team marketing a racial slur against Native Americans is evidently working to further denigrate Native Americans with personal attacks,” Oneida Indian Nation Vice President for Communications Joel Barkin said in a press release. “For all its rhetoric about respect, the team officials’ ugly tactics prove that they lack real respect for Native Americans.”
Hill, for his part, disagrees with the name. He says the term is a taunt and an insult. But the team’s increasingly sophisticated P.R. effort has found a way to twist opposition from Native American leaders like Sid Hill into a way to further support the ongoing use of the name.
“The conversation with Mr. Hill helped us to see how important it is to listen and respect the points of view of all people, even those who disagree with us,” team P.R. representative Tony Wyllie told the Post-Standard. “We hope those who disagree with us will also be willing to listen and respect our point of view as well.”
That’s where the logic of the effort to keep the name begins to collapse. Either the name falls within the realm of subjects on which reasonable minds may differ or it doesn’t. And if the Redskins acknowledge that reasonable minds may differ on the question of whether the team’s name is offensive to Native Americans, some would say that’s enough to justify a change.
But the approach to dealing with seemingly reasonable opposition is to say, basically, “We hear you. And we hope you hear us. Because we’re not changing the name.”
That may work for the next few years. At some point, however, the polls will show a level of opposition that can’t be ignored or shouted down or discredited. The ongoing effort to support the name via weekly press releases likely represents an acknowledgement that, at this point, the only victory comes from delaying the inevitable as long as possible.
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WestCoastJoe
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Under owner George Preston Marshall, for years he refused to integrate the team, an issue of racism, which cuts close to the controversy over the name, taken as racist by Native Americans.
Team nicknames can be a weird thing. Back in the 1970s I recall a local softball team, full of self-proclaimed idiots, which proudly called themselves the "Preverts," with the incorrect spelling and pronunciation. I found it funny. But some could certainly be offended.
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With the strong condemnation of the nickname Redskins by Native Americans, it is clear the name has to go. Daniel Snyder will be the last to acknowledge this. Just one more example of his being one of the worst owners in sports.
................During most of this unsuccessful period, Marshall continually refused to integrate the team, despite pressure from The Washington Post and the federal government of the United States.[25] On March 24, 1961, Secretary of the Interior Stewart Udall warned Marshall to hire black players or face federal retribution. For the first time in history, the federal government had attempted to desegregate a professional sports team.[26] The Redskins were under the threat of civil rights legal action by the Kennedy administration, which would have prevented a segregated team from playing at the new D.C. Stadium, as it was owned by the U.S. Department of the Interior and thus was federal government property. -- Wikipedia
Team nicknames can be a weird thing. Back in the 1970s I recall a local softball team, full of self-proclaimed idiots, which proudly called themselves the "Preverts," with the incorrect spelling and pronunciation. I found it funny. But some could certainly be offended.
..............
With the strong condemnation of the nickname Redskins by Native Americans, it is clear the name has to go. Daniel Snyder will be the last to acknowledge this. Just one more example of his being one of the worst owners in sports.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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South Pender
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Joe, you and others might be interested in this account of how Bear Bryant became the Branch Rickey of Alabama football (although 'bama was pretty late to the party).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1616 ... of-alabama
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1616 ... of-alabama
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WestCoastJoe
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Thanks, SP.South Pender wrote:Joe, you and others might be interested in this account of how Bear Bryant became the Branch Rickey of Alabama football (although 'bama was pretty late to the party).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1616 ... of-alabama
Bear Bryant was a good one.
Back in the day, I used to play basketball at Kits Beach. The Celtics were considered kind of the "white" team. Larry Bird, Danny Ainge, Kevin McHale, Bill Walton. Along with stars Robert Parrish and Dennis Johnson, of course. Paul Westphal later on.
And yet, they were the first NBA team to start five black players. Hired the first black coach in NBA basketball, MLB baseball or NFL football, Bill Russell.
http://www.nba.com/celtics/news/BHM2004 ... brate.html
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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South Pender
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- Location: Vancouver weekdays; Gulf Islands on weekends
More on an evolving story:
Native American groups distance themselves from the Redskins
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 13, 2014, 7:50 AM EDT
US-AMFOOT-NFL-REDSKINS-INDIGENOUS-RACISM
Dan Snyder’s effort to curry favor with Native Americans through his Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation may be backfiring.
The Native Indian Gaming Association, a nonprofit with 184 Indian nations as members pulled its sponsorship from a charity golf tournament this weekend because the Redskins’ Foundation was involved in the same event. The organization said it questioned whether Snyder was sincere about wanting to aid Native Americans and didn’t want to be involved in a charade.
“It’s a blatant attempt to try to buy out the issue,” Ernest Stevens, chairman of the Native Indian Gaming Association, told USA Today.
The Native Indian Gaming Association is not alone in wanting to distance itself from the Redskins. The Navajo Nation Council voted to oppose the use of the Washington Redskins name last week, and James Anaya, a United Nations expert on indigenous people’s rights, urged Snyder to “consider that the term ‘redskin’ for many is inextricably linked to a history of suffering and dispossession.”
There may be nothing Snyder can do to convince anyone that he’s sincerely listening to Native Americans. Nothing other than changing the Redskins’ name.
__________________________________________________________________
I have to agree with Ernest Stevens' assessment--Snyder trying to "buy out the issue."
Native American groups distance themselves from the Redskins
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 13, 2014, 7:50 AM EDT
US-AMFOOT-NFL-REDSKINS-INDIGENOUS-RACISM
Dan Snyder’s effort to curry favor with Native Americans through his Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation may be backfiring.
The Native Indian Gaming Association, a nonprofit with 184 Indian nations as members pulled its sponsorship from a charity golf tournament this weekend because the Redskins’ Foundation was involved in the same event. The organization said it questioned whether Snyder was sincere about wanting to aid Native Americans and didn’t want to be involved in a charade.
“It’s a blatant attempt to try to buy out the issue,” Ernest Stevens, chairman of the Native Indian Gaming Association, told USA Today.
The Native Indian Gaming Association is not alone in wanting to distance itself from the Redskins. The Navajo Nation Council voted to oppose the use of the Washington Redskins name last week, and James Anaya, a United Nations expert on indigenous people’s rights, urged Snyder to “consider that the term ‘redskin’ for many is inextricably linked to a history of suffering and dispossession.”
There may be nothing Snyder can do to convince anyone that he’s sincerely listening to Native Americans. Nothing other than changing the Redskins’ name.
__________________________________________________________________
I have to agree with Ernest Stevens' assessment--Snyder trying to "buy out the issue."
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South Pender
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From Pro Football Talk:
Houston schools stop using “Redskins” and other insensitive names
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 16, 2014, 5:40 AM EDT
As the NFL team in Washington continues to defend its use of the name Redskins, the franchise often points out that many high schools use the name. What the team doesn’t point out is that many schools are dropping the name, too.
Despite the team’s claim that “70 different high schools” use the name Redskins, several reports have indicated that the number is actually lower than that, and the Redskins are counting high schools that have already stopped using the name. The latest school to drop the name is Lamar High School in Houston, which announced this week that it will stop going by the name Redskins and start calling its teams the Texans.
That decision was part of a new policy announced by the Houston school district, preventing schools from using team names that are viewed as insensitive. Teams called the Indians, Warriors and Rebels are also changing their names.
The Washington Redskins, however, say they will never change.
Houston schools stop using “Redskins” and other insensitive names
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 16, 2014, 5:40 AM EDT
As the NFL team in Washington continues to defend its use of the name Redskins, the franchise often points out that many high schools use the name. What the team doesn’t point out is that many schools are dropping the name, too.
Despite the team’s claim that “70 different high schools” use the name Redskins, several reports have indicated that the number is actually lower than that, and the Redskins are counting high schools that have already stopped using the name. The latest school to drop the name is Lamar High School in Houston, which announced this week that it will stop going by the name Redskins and start calling its teams the Texans.
That decision was part of a new policy announced by the Houston school district, preventing schools from using team names that are viewed as insensitive. Teams called the Indians, Warriors and Rebels are also changing their names.
The Washington Redskins, however, say they will never change.
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WestCoastJoe
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Redskins as a team name has to go.South Pender wrote:From Pro Football Talk:
Houston schools stop using “Redskins” and other insensitive names
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 16, 2014, 5:40 AM EDT
As the NFL team in Washington continues to defend its use of the name Redskins, the franchise often points out that many high schools use the name. What the team doesn’t point out is that many schools are dropping the name, too.
Despite the team’s claim that “70 different high schools” use the name Redskins, several reports have indicated that the number is actually lower than that, and the Redskins are counting high schools that have already stopped using the name. The latest school to drop the name is Lamar High School in Houston, which announced this week that it will stop going by the name Redskins and start calling its teams the Texans.
That decision was part of a new policy announced by the Houston school district, preventing schools from using team names that are viewed as insensitive. Teams called the Indians, Warriors and Rebels are also changing their names.
Is there a high school with the team nickname Houston Honkies? Or the Rowlett Rednecks? Of course in Texas, they might wear those nicknames with pride.
Snyder is a stubborn guy. But he must be getting tired of fighting a losing battle. He must also be getting tired of having a losing team. No matter what coach he brings in, some with outstanding credentials, his team continues to lose. I have to admit that I wish he would get tired of his ownership of the Redskins, give it up, take his money, and leave the NFL.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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South Pender
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Washington has brought in a lot of players this off-season--no superstars, but a number of good, substantial players, like Tracy Porter, Brandon Meriweather, and Jason Hatcher. On paper, they're an improved team over last year's edition. Still, I have complete faith in Dan Snyder to screw it up once again. I agree; it would be great to see him go. But now, we have the truly appalling prospect of Donald Trump buying the Bills!WestCoastJoe wrote: Redskins as a team name has to go.
Is there a high school with the team nickname Houston Honkies? Or the Rowlett Rednecks? Of course in Texas, they might wear those nicknames with pride.
Snyder is a stubborn guy. But he must be getting tired of fighting a losing battle. He must also be getting tired of having a losing team. No matter what coach he brings in, some with outstanding credentials, his team continues to lose. I have to admit that I wish he would get tired of his ownership of the Redskins, give it up, take his money, and leave the NFL.
My self-appointed nickname in highschool was: the Honkus (as a way of accepting a put-down but putting my spin on it-I'm not a honky I'm the Honkus).South Pender wrote:Washington has brought in a lot of players this off-season--no superstars, but a number of good, substantial players, like Tracy Porter, Brandon Meriweather, and Jason Hatcher. On paper, they're an improved team over last year's edition. Still, I have complete faith in Dan Snyder to screw it up once again. I agree; it would be great to see him go. But now, we have the truly appalling prospect of Donald Trump buying the Bills!WestCoastJoe wrote: Redskins as a team name has to go.
Is there a high school with the team nickname Houston Honkies? Or the Rowlett Rednecks? Of course in Texas, they might wear those nicknames with pride.
Snyder is a stubborn guy. But he must be getting tired of fighting a losing battle. He must also be getting tired of having a losing team. No matter what coach he brings in, some with outstanding credentials, his team continues to lose. I have to admit that I wish he would get tired of his ownership of the Redskins, give it up, take his money, and leave the NFL.
I''d like to see the Washington team change its name but I still think all I can do is support First Nations groups who do object to the name. I've learned from experience that some groups (gender, ethnic etc...) DO NOT want to be spoken FOR. Fine, if it bothers you I'll support you.
As for the improvements football-wise... Not so sure they have. Their DEFENCE SUCKED, IMO. Spending a ton of dough on DJax doesn't seem like a priority, IMO, but its not my team to run. You gotta wonder too when RG3's money deal comes due too. Could be another team forced to blow a large percentage of their salary cap on just a few players. I won't be dissappointed at all to see them struggle again in what used to be my favourite division the NFC East. Still like catching games from that division.
Donald Trump owning an NFL team? Please no.-
South Pender
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Yeah, that's right, nota, I forgot about D-Jax going to Washington. I think if RGIII is 100%, they could have an offense with D-Jax and Alfred Morris. They did have a truly lousy D last year, but I think Porter, Meriweather, and Hatcher will improve that. So they should be better on paper, but I still think that somehow Dan Snyder will find a way to screw it up....
http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=450103
Big rich, IMO. Its not an issue because I say its not an issue..... And if you still say its an issue you haven't done your homework. Okay, if thats what you think......
Big rich, IMO. Its not an issue because I say its not an issue..... And if you still say its an issue you haven't done your homework. Okay, if thats what you think......
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WestCoastJoe
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notahomer wrote:http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=450103
Big rich, IMO. Its not an issue because I say its not an issue..... And if you still say its an issue you haven't done your homework. Okay, if thats what you think......
Snyder, as a rich man, has clever spin doctors fashion his justifications for him. They try to give him some foundation for an untenable position."We understand the issues out there, and we're not an issue," Snyder said. "The real issues are real-life issues, real-life needs, and I think it's time that people focus on reality."
Not sure a smarter man could have made it work, but ... He turns it into another insult. Well, for some without racial prejudice, ethnic slurs are very much a real life issue. Very much part of reality.
Once again, with his tunnel vision, stubbornness and insensitivity, he turns a position fashioned for him (the new foundation) into an insult.Challenged by those who consider the name "Redskins" offensive, Snyder and his staff recently travelled to Native American reservations and last month established a foundation to assist American Indian tribes. He had declined requests to answer questions about the foundation until Tuesday.
Snyder has insisted he will not change the Redskins' name, calling it a "badge of honour." He did not directly answer when asked to respond to those who say the foundation is a way of throwing money at the problem to placate critics. He instead cited the work behind the creation of the foundation.
"I think it tells you that we did our homework -- unlike a lot of people," he said.
Yes. As I noted above about the original owner, and his racism."If Dan Snyder thinks it is acceptable for a billionaire to market, promote and profit off of a dictionary defined racial slur, then he's living in an alternate universe," Oneida spokesman Ray Halbritter said in a statement. "If he wants to focus on reality, here's a reality check: the longer he insists on slurring Native Americans, the more damage he will keep doing to Native American communities, and the more he will become synonymous with infamous segregationist George Preston Marshall, who originally gave the team this offensive name."
Even about his interference, he strays from the truth. And spending time with the players is his dopamine reward, one of his great satisfactions in owning a team. No football success to speak of."When you look at the fact that the head coach and the general manager said this is the right move, the only thing I can do is support it," Snyder said. "And that's what I've done, and it's been great. I've spent a little time with him, and he's really a good guy."
Just the kind of guy he deserves on his team. Bring back Albert Haynesworth.The Redskins lured Jackson from the NFC East rival Philadelphia Eagles, where the three-time Pro Bowl receiver was scrutinized for questionable work habits and off-field issues. Snyder said Jackson doesn't get enough credit for doing charity work. The owner also can't wait to see his newest acquisition on the field.
New coach. New players bought. Same result, methinks.
Snyder
Worst owner in sports.John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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South Pender
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Have to agree, Joe, about Snyder--right down there with Jerry Jones, and maybe worse. Not to repeat myself, but I thought that Ernest Stevens' (Chairman of the nonprofit Native Indian Gaming Association) comment was spot on about Snyder's cynical move to set up the "Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation" (which, given his wealth, represented a trivial cost): "It's a blatant attempt to buy out the issue [of the team name]." His huge need for celebrity and particularly the cozying up to and preferential treatment of one of his players (RGIII) must be somewhat demoralizing to the other players, and just makes the whole operation look unprofessional.
At the other end of the continuum of owner quality, we have, thankfully, Paul Allen, owner of the Seahawks (and there are lots of other good NFL owners). The 'Hawks were owned by a grubby little money man like Dan Snyder in the 1990s, Ken Behring, and he had all but decided to move the Seahawks to Southern California. All about money; no concern about the Seattle fans. Allen stepped in (in 1997) and, somehow, bought the team from Behring (probably, given his enormous wealth, by making Behring an offer he couldn't refuse). This, of course, was huge for Seattle: ownership by a person who lived in the city (or on nearby Mercer Island), and the richest owner in the NFL (net worth today about $15B). He saved the Seahawks for Seattle. But it's more than that with Paul Allen. He's exactly the kind of owner you'd like to have: deep pockets, deep appreciation for the game and team, little or no apparent ego so that he stays firmly behind the scenes and lets the GM and HC run the team with no interference or seeking of the limelight. I don't recall seeing the cameras panning to Allen during games the way they do repeatedly with Jerry Jones (and Robert Kraft, for that matter). We're just as lucky in BC, I think, to have an owner like David Braley. Somehow, I think, and to some degree, the personality and values of the team owner infiltrate the team, and I think that's part of the problem in Washington, DC.
At the other end of the continuum of owner quality, we have, thankfully, Paul Allen, owner of the Seahawks (and there are lots of other good NFL owners). The 'Hawks were owned by a grubby little money man like Dan Snyder in the 1990s, Ken Behring, and he had all but decided to move the Seahawks to Southern California. All about money; no concern about the Seattle fans. Allen stepped in (in 1997) and, somehow, bought the team from Behring (probably, given his enormous wealth, by making Behring an offer he couldn't refuse). This, of course, was huge for Seattle: ownership by a person who lived in the city (or on nearby Mercer Island), and the richest owner in the NFL (net worth today about $15B). He saved the Seahawks for Seattle. But it's more than that with Paul Allen. He's exactly the kind of owner you'd like to have: deep pockets, deep appreciation for the game and team, little or no apparent ego so that he stays firmly behind the scenes and lets the GM and HC run the team with no interference or seeking of the limelight. I don't recall seeing the cameras panning to Allen during games the way they do repeatedly with Jerry Jones (and Robert Kraft, for that matter). We're just as lucky in BC, I think, to have an owner like David Braley. Somehow, I think, and to some degree, the personality and values of the team owner infiltrate the team, and I think that's part of the problem in Washington, DC.